[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

'Women' are not a homogenous group who all think the same after all, if one group of women think grid girls is offensive and one group of women think it is not then who is to say which is right? Why is one allowed to impose their view on another?

So it's up to the men then to step in and decide for them.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

So it's up to the men then to step in and decide for them.

Well it's predominantly men in F1 and the PDC who have made this decision to remove them so

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Well it's predominantly men in F1 and the PDC who have made this decision to remove them so

Exactly.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I would say, as long as it's not exploitative, a bit of harmless titillation hurt nobody. As long as everything is above board.

I mean essentially, it's a form of modelling?

Err no, modelling is going to be banned next because it is exploitative and not allowed.

This is how it works;

Woman 1: "I wanna be a model."

Woman 2: "Umm no you are sexist for wanting to be a model..."

"But that's what I really want to do? That's where I really see myself working."

"No, look, we've made some arrangements and you're going to train to be an engineer because there's more men doing that and we want to even it up."

"But I don't want to be an engineer?? I have no interest in being an engineer! I want to be a model and a F1 girl!"

"Tough ****! You're being an engineer! Because that's equality!"

"But..."

"Off to engineering school with you, you shameless anti-feminist puppet of the patriarchy, and don't dare come back until you have forgotten all about modelling, and have designed a bridge instead!"

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Err no, modelling is going to be banned next because it is exploitative and not allowed.

This is how it works;

Woman 1: "I wanna be a model."

Woman 2: "Umm no you are sexist for wanting to be a model..."

"But that's what I really want to do? That's where I really see myself working."

"No, look, we've made some arrangements and you're going to train to be an engineer because there's more men doing that and we want to even it up."

"But I don't want to be an engineer?? I have no interest in being an engineer! I want to be a model and a F1 girl!"

"Tough ****! You're being an engineer! Because that's equality!"

"But..."

"Off to engineering school with you, you shameless anti-feminist puppet of the patriarchy, and don't dare come back until you have forgotten all about modelling, and have designed a bridge instead!"

that's the way we are going..

[Crimson Dynamo]

why cant a woman

be more like a man?

that is what I am asking myself

[Cherie]

Barrie Hearn was just interviewed about this, and of course he wouldn't want his granddaughters doing it, great isn't it now we have old codgers telling women what they can and can't do

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't think I have ever seen so many men up in arms about womens rights. Its amazing and surely nothing to do with anything bar them being concerned about womens earning potential I hope these men remain concerned about what happens to women and their rights. Though I expect interest will dissapear again until the next issue about scantily dressed 'objects' to drool over being ended happens. My facebook is filled with blokes kicking off about this, and all trying the 'the poor women' angle when its painfully obvious what their real issue is.

Indeed, this thread is pretty hilarious and so transparent

[Crimson Dynamo]

Spoiler:

We don't just stand there looking pretty' - what it's really like to be a Formula 1 grid girl





I’ve always been a motorsports fan. I grew up watching them with my dad, who taught me the meaning of being black-flagged and pointed out the backmarkers. So when I saw a job casting for a ‘grid girl’ when I was 22, I jumped at the chance to be in the thick of the action. Eight years on, Formula One have just banned us from the 2018 season – we’re out of fashion, apparently, and ‘at odds’ with modern-day values. When these values stop women doing a job we love and are proud to do, you have to wonder if the modern world’s become a little odd, itself.

I was already doing modelling work when I started as a grid girl, but this was a different game altogether. The job offers aren’t just based on looks – though there are, of course, physical requirements; usually, you must be a size 8 to 12 and at least 5ft 5ins – they want to know who you are and how adept you will be at the meeting and greeting part of the role. Each job must be applied for afresh. A passion for the sport also helps. For all this, we are usually paid around Ł100 a day – far less than people might assume.

Before each event, we’re sent the low-down on what the job will involve: what we will be doing and what we will be wearing. No-one is forced to turn up and wear anything they’re not comfortable with, and anyone who claims we are forced into skimpy outfits is at least 20 years out of date. If we don't like the uniform, we needn't do the job. But in this post-Weinstein world, it seems women are deemed incapable of standing up for themselves.





On the day itself, it’s an early start: up before dawn to be at the circuit for 6am, ahead of the arrival of the public. For me, that might be a good 150 miles from West Yorkshire to Silverstone. Once there, we get changed – I’ve worn everything from a red dress suit (someone remarked we looked “more like bankers”) to overalls – and receive a briefing from the organisers about what’s going to happen. Then it’s off to the grid, where the work begins, and often doesn’t end until around 9pm.

To the armchair enthusiasts watching at home, it looks as if our only job is to stand in front of a car holding a flag, or to stand on a podium and clap – I was up there with Lewis Hamilton, shortly after he came under fire for spraying champagne straight into the face of one of the grid girls after his win at the Chinese Grand Prix in 2015 – but there’s more to it than hanging around. We also have to engage with the fans, both in the hospitality suites and the pit lanes, while they’re waiting for autographs. Most of the girls are motorsports fans: if we didn’t know what we were talking about, we wouldn’t get very far in our conversations with the punters. We’re not just standing there looking pretty, we’re out there representing the brands.

The fans are mostly but not exclusively men, and if we get some wolf-whistling and catcalling when we walk out on to the bridge, it’s no more than you’d get just walking down the street or on a night out. I’ve never seen or been on the receiving end of any male misbehaviour more inappropriate than I’ve encountered in a bar. The attention is not something I take too seriously, and nor does it bother my boyfriend. In fact, it’s more hurtful to hear the women tut-tutting and eye-rolling at our outfits.





The idea that we’re there merely as some kind of adornment just doesn’t wash. As a grid girl, you’re made to feel part of the team; you’re in the garages with the team members and you’re always well looked after. We’re not plied with booze or dragged to any after-parties. On the contrary, we can’t drink on the job, and at the end of the day I go home to my own bed.

They say it’s an honour to be a grid girl, and I genuinely feel it is. It is something I have chosen to do; less for the money, more for the thrill of it. We’re told that as part of female empowerment, women should be proud of their bodies and do as they choose with them. Well, who chooses which women get to choose? We’ve been accused of sexualising our bodies, demeaning women and failing to represent our sex positively. Someone even compared us to prostitutes. But none of these people understand what we do, or the fact that we really enjoy doing it.

The presence of women doing similar things is a well-loved tradition across numerous sports: from the walk-on girls in darts (though the Professional Darts Corporation has announced their days are numbered, too) to the ring girls in boxing. But organisers are now under pressure to look like they’re doing the right thing. Right for whom? Not for the spectators. Or for the girls who do it for the love of the job; for the sense of camaraderie and the excitement of being there on the track. Not once have I felt like a victim.





I’m 30 now and have a six-year-old daughter, who sometimes come with me to watch. Whether she wants to be a grid girl, an engineer or something else entirely, I’ll be happy, just as long as the choice is hers.

As well as continuing to model, I’ve also got my own company organising fireworks displays so I do not – I could not – rely on my work as a grid girl to pay the bills. I have friends who are nurses or teachers but still choose to come and spend their weekends as grid girls purely for the enjoyment of it. For others, it’s a way of making extra cash while at university – there are even doctors and lawyers.

Like any job there are downsides. When you drag yourself from bed early in the morning to have your hair and make-up done before spending a long day in high heels, you do sometimes wonder, “why on earth do I bother?” But once you’re out there on the podium, surrounded by the fans, that’s when you feel it’s the best gig in the world. We’ll miss it when it’s gone.

Daily Telegraph 2.2.18

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Indeed, this thread is pretty hilarious and so transparent

I have zero interest in darts, zero interest in F1, zero interest in modelling, and zero interest in seeing young girls waving off fast cars in tight dresses. Literally, none. I just straight up think that the concept that women (or anyone) should be able to dictate to other women what jobs are / aren't "appropriate" for them to do, and that this is somehow in the name of empowering women, is utterly ridiculous. I mean, there are plenty of things that men do for money that I wouldn't do, and that if I had a son I wouldn't particularly want him to do, that perpetuate male stereotypes etc., but do I want to stop other people from doing those jobs of their own free will? No, because that's authoritarian nonsense and it's none of my business how they choose to use their bodies or minds. That is free will, that is individualism. The idea that a women "must" behave in a certain way and "can't" or "shouldn't" do certain things is the absolute opposite of empowerment.

So... Secondly... and I have to be pretty blunt about this: The idea that it's "hilarious, transparent, obvious" that men are only concerned about this "because they want to see teh ladies with teh boobies" and are just making the rest up to fit that agenda is short-sighted, offensive, divisive, agenda driven twaddle. It might be true of a small number? I don't know. I do know that it certainly isn't true of myself and that it's a gross, and mostly entirely false, stereotype. It's also pretty ****ing sexist, but there you go.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't think I have ever seen so many men up in arms about womens rights. Its amazing and surely nothing to do with anything bar them being concerned about womens earning potential I hope these men remain concerned about what happens to women and their rights. Though I expect interest will dissapear again until the next issue about scantily dressed 'objects' to drool over being ended happens. My facebook is filled with blokes kicking off about this, and all trying the 'the poor women' angle when its painfully obvious what their real issue is.

Nice way to try and belittle any male opinions that might find their way in here.I don’t even watch F1 anymore.

Just commenting on the anti-logic of extremist feminism.

Whatever happened to women being able to choose whatever career they like?

[user104658]

...Actually I'm not even done. I'm pretty hacked off about this now.

I hope these men remain concerned about what happens to women and their rights. Though I expect interest will dissapear again until the next issue about scantily dressed 'objects' to drool over being ended happens.

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Indeed, this thread

...Seriously though. I'm struggling to get my head around this comment, honestly. I mean yes, we all know that LT is on the wind up, and Alf is probably a bit of a perv, but other than that... a lot of male members including myself have commented in this thread and the idea that the above bolded statement actually applies? Look back at the male members who have commented here and tell me that you genuinely think that "it's about having scantily clad objects to drool over". That's a pretty big statement to be making about people who in my opinion, it does not apply to in any way shape or form.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I have zero interest in darts, zero interest in F1, zero interest in modelling, and zero interest in seeing young girls waving off fast cars in tight dresses. Literally, none. I just straight up think that the concept that women (or anyone) should be able to dictate to other women what jobs are / aren't "appropriate" for them to do, and that this is somehow in the name of empowering women, is utterly ridiculous. I mean, there are plenty of things that men do for money that I wouldn't do, and that if I had a son I wouldn't particularly want him to do, that perpetuate male stereotypes etc., but do I want to stop other people from doing those jobs of their own free will? No, because that's authoritarian nonsense and it's none of my business how they choose to use their bodies or minds. That is free will, that is individualism. The idea that a women "must" behave in a certain way and "can't" or "shouldn't" do certain things is the absolute opposite of empowerment.

So... Secondly... and I have to be pretty blunt about this: The idea that it's "hilarious, transparent, obvious" that men are only concerned about this "because they want to see teh ladies with teh boobies" and are just making the rest up to fit that agenda is short-sighted, offensive, divisive, agenda driven twaddle. It might be true of a small number? I don't know. I do know that it certainly isn't true of myself and that it's a gross, and mostly entirely false, stereotype. It's also pretty ****ing sexist, but there you go.

Well it's very easy to spout that logic of "well I wouldn't be bothered if men were doing jobs I don't want to do" when men are not discriminated against, looked at like play thing to amuse women and are looked at like inferior beings to men. It's much more than taking jobs away from women.

[MTVN]

I do agree with TS tbf that the implication is that the male members who have commented on this have only done so because they're perverts and so should just have their points dismissed rather than engaged with. Never mind that a few female members have expressed the same view as have many other women in the media

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well it's very easy to spout that logic of "well I wouldn't be bothered if men were doing jobs I don't want to do" when men are not discriminated against, looked at like play thing to amuse women and are looked at like inferior beings to men. It's much more than taking jobs away from women.

There are plenty of jobs where men ARE a "play things to amuse women" and if men or women choose to do those jobs, enjoy those jobs, and actively want to do those jobs then that is no one else's business, and the idea that women now have the right to oppress other women to stop women being oppressed by men / society is ludicrous. It's not empowerment. It's judgement - what I believe they used to call "slut shaming". NO ONE on this thread has referred to the F1 girls as "objects to be drooled over yuck" or anything similar except Vicky (and by way of agreement, yourself) under the supposed guise of female empowerment and feminism. I call BS. These women have their own voices and can speak for themselves about their own careers and trying to suggest that they need other "better" women "who understand the real issues" to do it for them misses the point so spectacularly, that THAT is hilarious to me.

Trying to then shut down the opposing opinion (which is coming from males and many females alike, by the way) as "just stoopid dirty perv men wanting to drool" is incorrect, disingenuous and insulting... and doing so in the supposed vein of talking about equality and respect is blatant hypocrisy.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I do agree with TS tbf that the implication is that the male members who have commented on this have only done so because they're perverts and so should just have their points dismissed rather than engaged with. Never mind that a few female members have expressed the same view as have many other women in the media

Just seems very odd to me that all of a sudden men are interested in womens rights I watch Darts and I watch F1 and I watch Boxing and I watch UFC, all have decoration girls prancing around holding signs etc. And it always leaves a bad taste in my mouth. What do they have to do with the sport?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There are plenty of jobs where men ARE a "play things to amuse women" and if men or women choose to do those jobs, enjoy those jobs, and actively want to do those jobs then that is no one else's business, and the idea that women now have the right to oppress other women to stop women being oppressed by men / society is ludicrous. It's not empowerment. It's judgement - what I believe they used to call "slut shaming". NO ONE on this thread has referred to the F1 girls as "objects to be drooled over yuck" or anything similar except Vicky (and by way of agreement, yourself) under the supposed guise of female empowerment and feminism. I call BS. These women have their own voices and can speak for themselves about their own careers and trying to suggest that they need other "better" women "who understand the real issues" to do it for them misses the point so spectacularly, that THAT is hilarious to me.

Trying to then shut down the opposing opinion (which is coming from males and many females alike, by the way) as "just stoopid dirty perv men wanting to drool" is incorrect, disingenuous and insulting... and doing so in the supposed vein of talking about equality and respect is blatant hypocrisy.

No you're hilarious acting like s**t like this doesn't help to carry on the view in society that women are there to amuse men. What do they have to do with the sports? Absolutely **** all and I applaud F1 for taking the back-dated practise out of their sport.

Be offended all you want, I'm just glad that this sport is moving forward and hope the others will follow suit

[Northern Monkey]

Well,Since my pervy male opinion is worthless on this here is female racing driver Rebecca Jackson saying exactly what i think

Youtube video

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Just seems very odd to me that all of a sudden men are interested in womens rights I watch Darts and I watch F1 and I watch Boxing and I watch UFC, all have decoration girls prancing around holding signs etc. And it always leaves a bad taste in my mouth. What do they have to do with the sport?

Well I'm interested in the issue because I'm a big darts fan and while having walk on girls is not a necessity I do think it's part of the glitz and glamour of it all and that its fundamentally pretty harmless. If the reason for banning them is that its exploitative then I also think it's fair to point out that the women involved certainly don't feel exploited and that its high profile work for them that can advance their careers

It's not a big deal for me, it won't affect my enjoyment of the sport but it just feels like a heavyhanded and overzealous thing to do and it's like we're becoming ever more stuffy and puritan with these things

If being a man means it's not my place to say that then so be it but there's been a lot of women who have argued their case very well who can't be dismissed as easily. And like I said it's mainly men who are involved in the running of the PDC and F1 who have made this decision on their behalf because they think it's good pr. It's a token gesture really. If they were really that concerned themselves about women's rights then maybe they should do more to encourage female participation in their sports rather than patting themselves on the back because they've deprived grid girls of a job

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Well I'm interested in the issue because I'm a big darts fan and while having walk on girls is not a necessity I do think it's part of the glitz and glamour of it all and that its fundamentally pretty harmless. If the reason for banning them is that its exploitative then I also think it's fair to point out that the women involved certainly don't feel exploited and that its high profile work for them that can advance their careers

It's not a big deal for me, it won't affect my enjoyment of the sport but it just feels like a heavyhanded and overzealous thing to do and it's like we're becoming ever more stuffy and puritan with these things

If being a man means it's not my place to say that then so be it but there's been a lot of women who have argued their case very well who can't be dismissed as easily. And like I said it's mainly men who are involved in the running of the PDC and F1 who have made this decision on their behalf because they think it's good pr. It's a token gesture really. If they were really that concerned themselves about women's rights then maybe they should do more to encourage female participation in their sports rather than patting themselves on the back because they've deprived grid girls of a job

I don't think the women involved are being exploited no, my issue with it, is, how it makes women as a whole look and how men as a whole view women. Obviously it's not just this one thing alone that decides that in society but imo it is one thing that contributes to it and I'm glad they're removing it from these sports that I enjoy watching as I really don't feel like it has any place there. I watch the Darts too and come on, the "glamour & glitz" It's like a massive pub full of people dressed up as the 118 guys or Super Mario holding little signs (it does look like a fun night out though)

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I don't think the women involved are being exploited no, my issue with it, is, how it makes women as a whole look and how men as a whole view women. Obviously it's not just this one thing alone that decides that in society but imo it is one thing that contributes to it and I'm glad they're removing it from these sports that I enjoy watching as I really don't feel like it has any place there. I watch the Darts too and come on, the "glamour & glitz" It's like a massive pub full of people dressed up as the 118 guys or Super Mario holding little signs (it does look like a fun night out though)

Big venue entertainment - big crowds, bright lights etc. Can't get more glamarous than a night at the darts

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Big venue entertainment - big crowds, bright lights etc. Can't get more glamarous than a night at the darts

Ok we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, would love to go to one though

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

No you're hilarious acting like s**t like this doesn't help to carry on the view in society that women are there to amuse men. What do they have to do with the sports? Absolutely **** all and I applaud F1 for taking the back-dated practise out of their sport.

Be offended all you want, I'm just glad that this sport is moving forward and hope the others will follow suit

Where is the evidence that having walk-on girls at the darts "that women purely exist to amuse men"? I'm not saying such evidence doesn't exist, maybe it does, but it pretty much sounds like an assumption about something that you, personally, don't like seeing. Those women ARE there to amuse men... and I'm sure some women... just like ANY actor or performer is on stage or screen to amuse their audience. Just like the sportspeople themselves, at the end of the day, are there to amuse the crowd. Maybe their personal reasons for doing the sport are not that, and it's about skill and achievement, but at the end of the day... if professional sports weren't about amusing an audience... professional sports wouldn't exist because everyone would need a day job. Where is the evidence that this in any way affects general perceptions outside of pure entertainment?

But like I said, sure, there's a debate to be had about whether or not it's time to reign in / wind down / alter these traditions into something "healthier" for society.

That in no way entails trying to shut down the opinions of an entire gender by implying - unfairly and quite obviously, in my opinion, falsely - that those people are drooling pervs thinking with our genitals. That's a generalising insult based on nothing more than personal prejudice and the fact that you're incensed by something that is a "hot button issue" for you. Vicky made the allegation about "men in general" talking about social media commentary - which I already think is incorrect, short-sighted and sexist. You took the suggestion and quite openly, and baselessly, directed it at the male forum members posting in this thread because you're "pissed off" and THAT, not that I'm sure I need to point it out to you, is flat out against the forum rules.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I have zero interest in darts, zero interest in F1, zero interest in modelling, and zero interest in seeing young girls waving off fast cars in tight dresses. Literally, none. I just straight up think that the concept that women (or anyone) should be able to dictate to other women what jobs are / aren't "appropriate" for them to do, and that this is somehow in the name of empowering women, is utterly ridiculous. I mean, there are plenty of things that men do for money that I wouldn't do, and that if I had a son I wouldn't particularly want him to do, that perpetuate male stereotypes etc., but do I want to stop other people from doing those jobs of their own free will? No, because that's authoritarian nonsense and it's none of my business how they choose to use their bodies or minds. That is free will, that is individualism. The idea that a women "must" behave in a certain way and "can't" or "shouldn't" do certain things is the absolute opposite of empowerment.

So... Secondly... and I have to be pretty blunt about this: The idea that it's "hilarious, transparent, obvious" that men are only concerned about this "because they want to see teh ladies with teh boobies" and are just making the rest up to fit that agenda is short-sighted, offensive, divisive, agenda driven twaddle. It might be true of a small number? I don't know. I do know that it certainly isn't true of myself and that it's a gross, and mostly entirely false, stereotype. It's also pretty ****ing sexist, but there you go.

that is the nub of the issue really

[Tom4784]

I just don't see the problem with keeping the girls and just adding guys to the mix as well, women and gays like racing too.