[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jet

Ah Livia.
Thank goodness for those who have higher levels of comprehension.

Thank goodness for people who agree with you,in order for you to feel to validated in your stance?..anyone with a counter view are in no way 'lesser' Jet, it is an important factor in a debate to recognise this.

Let's not forget the thread has been dragged from it's initial topic, one where the media and establishment conspire to demonise a threat to the status quo by planting false information.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Thank goodness for people who agree with you,in order for you to feel to validated in your stance?..anyone with a counter view are in no way 'lesser' Jet, it is an important factor in a debate to recognise this.

Let's not forget the thread has been dragged from it's initial topic, one where the media and establishment conspire to demonise a threat to the status quo by planting false information.

What's also important in debate is to recognise that sometimes, someone knows more about something than you do.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

What's also important in debate is to recognise that sometimes, someone knows more about something than you do.

Well, no. You are basically saying that nobody can question what Jet is saying because he claims to know more about something than anyone else whilst showing little to no evidence of his claims. His responses and arguments are ones rooted in emotion rather than logic or fact.

[Ammi]

..I guess I can only speak for myself with the ‘reveals, that jet has made in Corbyn discussions...obviously there is no firm ‘proof’, no firm ‘evidence’ to things he has witnessed and any link of support from Jeremy Corbyn to an IRA ‘cause’ he has personally known to be discussed etc... but it would seem bizarre also ..(..and not make sense to me..)...that the things he says would have no foundation either or very little../..flimsy foundation...these things are not carried with such intense pain through life on ‘flimsy’ or incorrect..?...it is for me though a bit like a ‘jigsaw puzzle’ and seeing which bits seem to fit...Jeremy Corbyn seems to have inconsistencies in what he will speak out about more readily and what he refuses to condemn../..seems reluctant to openly condemn...jet knows I also have Northern Ireland connections, my dad was from Northern Ireland...he didn’t live through the troubles like jet did though, because he had already moved to England...but he did feel the personal loss of some people in his life, so I’m aware of quite a few ‘IRA discussions and references’ through my younger life...anyways, I have absolutely no reservations whatsoever in condemning the IRA and the slaughter of lives they were guilty of...so I can’t understand that reluctance in Jeremy which he appears to display...it just doesn’t sit right for me...yes, I am anti all violence but I can also be specific as well when a specific violence/..terrorist group is being discussed../..when that’s the actual question being asked..’do you condemn’....

...anyways, there are lots of things for me that don’t sit right about Jeremy...he feels quite the opportunist, feels quite disingenuous and inconsistent...that’s not to say though, would he be the right person to lead the country as PM in the upcoming future...?..maybe he would, I honestly don’t know because we feel stuck between a rock and a hard place in politics with the choices we have and the two party values we have...but it would be nice to feel more assured about him as a potential leader...there is so much said about Jeremy and has always been.. his ‘attachments’ to terrorist groups...with no ‘evidence’ to support any ‘truth’, so how can they be true because there would be evidence over the years, I mean surely..?...but then why are things consistently and persistently said and continue to be said if there was no ‘truth’ or links either...so many questions and very important to be more certain than I am atm of the answers to those...I personally find jet’s posts and thoughts very interesting...and they’ve made me think a lot...


...on a personal note though...there are many times that ‘personal life experiences’ have been noted by members on the forum to explain their views and their stances etc..which also obviously explains the emotion felt by them also because the nature is more personal experience...I have seen much understanding shown by others and understandably so...and even from time to time..’well they have personal experience, so a greater insight’../type thing...but not so much with jet and his own personal life experiences, which are more widely dismissed I would say...which I guess goes back to my thoughts...where politics are concerned../..political parties../..political leaders etc...people become lost in the defence of or condemnation of...we stop ‘seeing’ and we stop ‘feeling’ people’s emotional pain and we stop seeing and feeling each other...I don’t think I’ve ever seen a pain so ‘laid bare’ on the forum as jet has done in revealing the worst times of his life...always very difficult to read...but then lovely as well when you read the support that person gets and never ..’well prove it then, otherwise you’re nothing more than an emotive person and too closely attached’...there’s a reason he’s closely attached.....because he’s lived it and because he’s lived Jeremy’s name being attached in support of what he’s lived through...

...I goddamn hate politics...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I guess I can only speak for myself with the ‘reveals, that jet has made in Corbyn discussions...obviously there is no firm ‘proof’, no firm ‘evidence’ to things he has witnessed and any link of support from Jeremy Corbyn to an IRA ‘cause’ he has personally known to be discussed etc... but it would seem bizarre also ..(..and not make sense to me..)...that the things he says would have no foundation either or very little../..flimsy foundation...these things are not carried with such intense pain through life on ‘flimsy’ or incorrect..?...it is for me though a bit like a ‘jigsaw puzzle’ and seeing which bits seem to fit...Jeremy Corbyn seems to have inconsistencies in what he will speak out about more readily and what he refuses to condemn../..seems reluctant to openly condemn...jet knows I also have Northern Ireland connections, my dad was from Northern Ireland...he didn’t live through the troubles like jet did though, because he had already moved to England...but he did feel the personal loss of some people in his life, so I’m aware of quite a few ‘IRA discussions and references’ through my younger life...anyways, I have absolutely no reservations whatsoever in condemning the IRA and the slaughter of lives they were guilty of...so I can’t understand that reluctance in Jeremy which he appears to display...it just doesn’t sit right for me...yes, I am anti all violence but I can also be specific as well when a specific violence/..terrorist group is being discussed../..when that’s the actual question being asked..’do you condemn’....

...anyways, there are lots of things for me that don’t sit right about Jeremy...he feels quite the opportunist, feels quite disingenuous and inconsistent...that’s not to say though, would he be the right person to lead the country as PM in the upcoming future...?..maybe he would, I honestly don’t know because we feel stuck between a rock and a hard place in politics with the choices we have and the two party values we have...but it would be nice to feel more assured about him as a potential leader...there is so much said about Jeremy and has always been.. his ‘attachments’ to terrorist groups...with no ‘evidence’ to support any ‘truth’, so how can they be true because there would be evidence over the years, I mean surely..?...but then why are things consistently and persistently said and continue to be said if there was no ‘truth’ or links either...so many questions and very important to be more certain than I am atm of the answers to those...I personally find jet’s posts and thoughts very interesting...and they’ve made me think a lot...


...on a personal note though...there are many times that ‘personal life experiences’ have been noted by members on the forum to explain their views and their stances etc..which also obviously explains the emotion felt by them also because the nature is more personal experience...I have seen much understanding shown by others and understandably so...and even from time to time..’well they have personal experience, so a greater insight’../type thing...but not so much with jet and his own personal life experiences, which are more widely dismissed I would say...which I guess goes back to my thoughts...where politics are concerned../..political parties../..political leaders etc...people become lost in the defence of or condemnation of...we stop ‘seeing’ and we stop ‘feeling’ people’s emotional pain and we stop seeing and feeling each other...I don’t think I’ve ever seen a pain so ‘laid bare’ on the forum as jet has done in revealing the worst times of his life...always very difficult to read...but then lovely as well when you read the support that person gets and never ..’well prove it then, otherwise you’re nothing more than an emotive person and too closely attached’...there’s a reason he’s closely attached.....because he’s lived it and because he’s lived Jeremy’s name being attached in support of what he’s lived through...

...I goddamn hate politics...

That's quite contradictory to your last statement to me that we should all have our own individual 'vision', I do respect Jet and the experiences he has had. My only issue being that I feel the anger displayed is directed in the wrong places, and (from my perspective) with a slight touch of bias.

I reject your opportunist suggestion, as someone who has until recently stayed on the back benches for decades that does not smack to me of your common or garden career politician.

He has genuinely and consistently condemned all forms of terrorism, conflict and war... I don't know how else to demonstrate that when there are news reports stretching back over recent governments campaigning on those issues available for all to see.

It doesn't sit right with me that we have to be so specific if a certain group is being discussed that there can be no counter and that must remain the focus... that is not an open debate is it?
It matters not how interesting posts are if they close down debate how objective are they?

On the issue in question there has been nothing but a smear campaign, designed specifically to further defame Corbyn again found to be nothing but rubbish, why isn't this the focus of the thread as intended?

[bots]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Well, no. You are basically saying that nobody can question what Jet is saying because he claims to know more about something than anyone else whilst showing little to no evidence of his claims. His responses and arguments are ones rooted in emotion rather than logic or fact.

I class my self as someone with a lot of experience who can spot someone that is reciting something parrot fashion or has lived through it and experienced it. Jet has consistently spoken with passion about his experiences and I personally rate them as genuine. It's a forum, so not everyone is going to agree, but I think as a moderator you should be able to respect the posters viewpoint without trying to question and diminish his input.You say his arguments don't come from fact, yet he has stated things that are all available in the public domain. They are factual.

What dismays me more than anything is that a large proportion of labour supporters seem to have pledged blind allegiance to jeremy and can't accept the remotest possibility that he may have done wrong at any time in his career... staggering gullibility to the current labour leaderships spin.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I class my self as someone with a lot of experience who can spot someone that is reciting something parrot fashion or has lived through it and experienced it. Jet has consistently spoken with passion about his experiences and I personally rate them as genuine. It's a forum, so not everyone is going to agree, but I think as a moderator you should be able to respect the posters viewpoint without trying to question and diminish his input.You say his arguments don't come from fact, yet he has stated things that are all available in the public domain. They are factual.

What dismays me more than anything is that a large proportion of labour supporters seem to have pledged blind allegiance to jeremy and can't accept the remotest possibility that he may have done wrong at any time in his career... staggering gullibility to the current labour leaderships spin.

Me being a mod has nothing to do with it and I resent that, like so many other people, your first port of call to attack me is the fact that I am a mod. If someone's going to try to shut down someone's opinion, not through reasoned debate but by basically saying 'I know more about this than you, shut up'' then I will take an issue with that and that does not contradict me being a mod at all no matter how much you try to twist it to be that way.

I don't care about Corbyn, I'm bored of the same old **** discussions involving him, I just wanted to voice my opposition to this mentality that nobody can question or have an opposing opinion to Jet on this issue.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Well, no. You are basically saying that nobody can question what Jet is saying because he claims to know more about something than anyone else whilst showing little to no evidence of his claims. His responses and arguments are ones rooted in emotion rather than logic or fact.

Dezzy... here you are again... telling me what I mean when I have posted something in response to Kizzy. It really is annoying having to explain my self to you every time I respond to Kizzy, but here goes...

Jet's arguments are rooted in emotion, and so would Kizzy's be if she had been through Jet's life. He's lived the troubles.... Kizzy has not. If I make a statement about the law, or about Judaism, or about something I know more about than you do, I would not expect you to assume your argument is as well informed as mine. Which is what Kizzy assumes about everything.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

Dezzy... here you are again... telling me what I mean when I have posted something in response to Kizzy. It really is annoying having to explain my self to you every time I respond to Kizzy, but here goes...

Jet's arguments are rooted in emotion, and so would Kizzy's be if she had been through Jet's life. He's lived the troubles.... Kizzy has not. If I make a statement about the law, or about Judaism, or about something I know more about than you do, I would not expect you to assume your argument is as well informed as mine. Which is what Kizzy assumes about everything.

Yeah, none of this changes the fact you're essentially telling people that they can't argue against what Jet is saying just 'cus.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Yeah, none of this changes the fact you're essentially telling people that they can't argue against what Jet is saying just 'cus.

That is just utter nonsense and not what Livia is saying at all. She’s saying that I have more knowledge and experience of the troubles because I lived in the midst of them for 30 years, therefore I will know more than someone who hasn’t so my words shouldn’t just be summarily dismissed as you and Kizzy have dismissed them. That is just common sense.
You choose to cast aside anything I say as emotive and not based on fact - well, you are wrong. Emotion and facts are not exclusive of one another.

Whereas this quote from Kizzie about Corbyn:

he was guilty of nothing then and he is guilty of nothing now.

Is based on nothing at all but an opinion with no personal knowledge or experience or any facts to support it. Surely you see the difference and yet you say nothing as to this. Why not?

But really, I don’t need or want your support. In fact I’d be in shock if you ever agreed with me on anything, or had a kind word to say to me.


Those I respect and admire on here give my posts consideration and thought and that is more than enough for me.
A big thank you to them all.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jet

That is just utter nonsense and not what Livia is saying at all. She’s saying that I have more knowledge and experience of the troubles because I lived in the midst of them for 30 years, therefore I will know more than someone who hasn’t so my words shouldn’t just be summarily dismissed as you and Kizzy have dismissed them. That is just common sense.
You choose to cast aside anything I say as emotive and not based on fact - well, you are wrong. Emotion and facts are not exclusive of one another.

Whereas this quote from Kizzie about Corbyn:


Is based on nothing at all but an opinion with no personal knowledge or experience or any facts to support it. Surely you see the difference and yet you say nothing as to this. Why not?

But really, I don’t need or want your support. In fact I’d be in shock if you ever agreed with me on anything, or had a kind word to say to me.


Those I respect and admire on here give my posts consideration and thought and that is more than enough for me.
A big thank you to them all.

Because I don't really give a **** about this grating argument, I just take issue with the fact that people think your views can't be argued against because they sure as hell can.

It's actually got very little to do with you in all honesty and more to do with Livia using your apparent experiences to try to shut down someone she hates without putting in the effort of an actual argument.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jet

That is just utter nonsense and not what Livia is saying at all. She’s saying that I have more knowledge and experience of the troubles because I lived in the midst of them for 30 years, therefore I will know more than someone who hasn’t so my words shouldn’t just be summarily dismissed as you and Kizzy have dismissed them. That is just common sense.
You choose to cast aside anything I say as emotive and not based on fact - well, you are wrong. Emotion and facts are not exclusive of one another.

Whereas this quote from Kizzie about Corbyn:


Is based on nothing at all but an opinion with no personal knowledge or experience or any facts to support it. Surely you see the difference and yet you say nothing as to this. Why not?

But really, I don’t need or want your support. In fact I’d be in shock if you ever agreed with me on anything, or had a kind word to say to me.


Those I respect and admire on here give my posts consideration and thought and that is more than enough for me.
A big thank you to them all.

I haven't dismissed them, all I have suggested is that yours is an emotive response due to your life. Your perspective will be more one sided due to the impact on your community.

There will be though another man sat a few miles away who has had similar experiences to you aside from the fact he is catholic and all the trauma he has suffered at the hands of unionists?.... He may know victims young and old of the troubles, we shouldn't just whitewash those away because you don't feel that the groups who created tragedy in his life weren't as bad.

I appreciate too that you feel betrayed that a British MP shared a platform with the IRA, yet reading of plans for the repartition of Northern Ireland I wonder if this wasn't to highlight the urgency needed to stave of what would effectively be a full blown civil war?

Had the IRA not been willing to commit to peace wouldn't they have just killed Corbyn as a representative of the unionist establishment?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

What's also important in debate is to recognise that sometimes, someone knows more about something than you do.

I don't need any guidance thank you Livia, I will comment where I see fit.

What is the point of this debate forum if the only persons qualified to comment are those with direct personal experience of one perspective on any given topic?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I don't need any guidance thank you Livia, I will comment where I see fit.

What is the point of this debate forum if the only persons qualified to comment are those with direct personal experience of one perspective on any given topic?

Everyone can debate. You must accept, however, that your own opinion about the troubles is not nearly as well-informed at jet's. He's explained and posted and replied until he's blue in the face and you've been your usual self. I merely said he'd done enough, if you're still arguing for the last word he's kind of wasting his time because you stopped listening long ago, if you ever were listening.

[Twosugars]

Well-informed does not mean right or the only right pov. Especially when the issue is emotive.
I'm gay and I know how it feels to be gay, but don't claim to have universal overview of the issue.
In court of law for example, one side doesn't judge the issue, it's the judge and a panel of strangers. It's for a reason.
In this case, imo, yes there was terrorism, on both sides. IRA's brutal activities are the latest in a long struggle of the Irish for independence. Britain inflicted more than enough neglect and exploitation of Ireland throughout centuries of occupation. Countless Irish died in famine and struggle, countless emigrated.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Well-informed does not mean right or the only right pov. Especially when the issue is emotive.
I'm gay and I know how it feels to be gay, but don't claim to have universal overview of the issue.
In court of law for example, one side doesn't judge the issue, it's the judge and a panel of strangers. It's for a reason.
In this case, imo, yes there was terrorism, on both sides. IRA's brutal activities are the latest in a long struggle of the Irish for independence. Britain inflicted more than enough neglect and exploitation of Ireland throughout centuries of occupation. Countless Irish died in famine and struggle, countless emigrated.

True, had it been anywhere else in the world it would have been condemned as a brutal, exploitative and oppressive regime that made Ireland suffer... But it was here so as per there isn't.
I don't think there is such a sentiment as 'anti- British' as the British are anti British.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

True, had it been anywhere else in the world it would have been condemned as a brutal, exploitative and oppressive regime that made Ireland suffer... But it was here so as per there isn't.
I don't think there is such a sentiment as 'anti- British' as the British are anti British.

If that is your view of the troubles then the research you claim to have done was very one sided.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

True, had it been anywhere else in the world it would have been condemned as a brutal, exploitative and oppressive regime that made Ireland suffer... But it was here so as per there isn't.
I don't think there is such a sentiment as 'anti- British' as the British are anti British.

Tell me about it. But of course the British are always right, because .... well, they are British. Superiority complex or stupidity? Take your pick.
After centuries of colonialism and milking other countries (Ireland included) for resources, Britan is being cut down to size - a middle-sized European country.
And in the Brexit negotiations, Britain must depend on the good will of once much looked-down upon Ireland. Oh, the irony.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Dezzy... here you are again... telling me what I mean when I have posted something in response to Kizzy. It really is annoying having to explain my self to you every time I respond to Kizzy, but here goes...

Jet's arguments are rooted in emotion, and so would Kizzy's be if she had been through Jet's life. He's lived the troubles.... Kizzy has not. If I make a statement about the law, or about Judaism, or about something I know more about than you do, I would not expect you to assume your argument is as well informed as mine. Which is what Kizzy assumes about everything.

Originally Posted by Livia

Everyone can debate. You must accept, however, that your own opinion about the troubles is not nearly as well-informed at jet's. He's explained and posted and replied until he's blue in the face and you've been your usual self. I merely said he'd done enough, if you're still arguing for the last word he's kind of wasting his time because you stopped listening long ago, if you ever were listening.

This is getting really silly now, I have for years had to battle to have a say on this forum without having to run the gauntlet of yourself and others who presume to be the forum oracle on any given topic.

I have and do appreciate Jets experience, however that does not exclude me from having an opinion specifically as in the main the responses I received were as time quite insulting... I accepted that due to the emotive subject whilst still attempting a reasoned debate.

Let it be known AGAIN that I do NOT require your input, not to mediate not to referee and not to judge, this following me around the forum has to stop.