[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No more than ever to be honest Kizzy. I mean, have you been in Chat & Games lately? Or the on-season forums?

or twitter




woke as f my fckg arse

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

or twitter




woke as f my fckg arse

Why do you think the govt are flooding social platforms with trolls?..... to counter the awakening to corruption.

The opinion that the left ARE the ones advocating corruption is as laughable as
it is transparent.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Why do you think the govt are flooding social platforms with trolls?..... to counter the awakening to corruption.

The opinion that the left ARE the ones advocating corruption is as laughable as
it is transparent.

have a day off Kizzy...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

have a day off Kizzy...

I'll be back at work on Friday, will you miss me?

[Maru]

I see only one yes written here (MTVN, the lonewolf), where is the other yes?... I think the morality train has been fully stopped If there's no consensus, there's no momentum (imo)... we need cooperation and mutual respect to better our society in a way that would be more productive and have more permanent change... (well, what is permanence anyway, probably thinking more 'semi-'permanent... we could all maybe die from a natural disaster in the near future

As LT would say...



)

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Maru

I agree in general that young people have had to deal with some additional adversity with respect to generations in the past in certain areas. However, that doesn't give then give them rights to entitlements they 'feel' they deserve simply because they weren't given the start they would've preferred. We've all had our share of adversity in our beginnings... they have the benefits though of growing up on a foundation where a lot of paths have already been smoothed out and laid for them... so I don't think I can agree they've had it harder than any other generation. Maybe some things that used to be easier are harder, but then other things that used to be harder are much easier... but overall I'd argue it's much easier than it used to be...

And when we consider the state of our respective nations to others across the Earth, it feels a bit silly to talk about these as true "hardships" when you and I live in one of the healthiest, safety and freest countries on the planet... at least the youth have momentum at which to move forward with and be mobile as a generation... in other countries, their momentum would be quite restricted to certain fields and economic levels. I don't feel that is the case for the US, not at all with the luxuries we can enjoy, but I wouldn't really know for certain with the UK, because I know almost nothing about politics or the socioeconomic situation there...

So I can't say it sucks for the younguns... at least not here.

..I’m not really sure I understand what you’re saying, Maru...I don’t think younger people could be described as ‘entitled’ in my opinion of any younger person I know and have known...so I don’t understand the ‘feel they deserve simply because...’...yes we’ve all had our share of adversities through life and we’ve all had ‘foundations’ laid for us but I don’t think for younger people their foundation is any more or less smooth, though..but some things are certainly not much ‘easier’ for the younger generation, which I specified earlier in regards to pensions and how much earlier in life, younger people have to ‘plan’ and prepare...and how difficult it can be to progress in jobs in many areas unless academics are achieved...


...’hardships’ has me a bit confused as well...(..sorry, I’m very tired atm..)...but I didn’t infer ‘hardships’ at all, or didn’t intend to, if you feel I did...and yes, we do all live in apparent healthy, safe and free countries...but suicide rates of younger people in healthy, safe and free countries are quite disturbing also as is diagnosed mental illness in young people..in a way that I don’t recall these things so much as being the case back in the day.... of people in their teens and 20s etc...

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I’m not really sure I understand what you’re saying, Maru...I don’t think younger people could be described as ‘entitled’ in my opinion of any younger person I know and have known...so I don’t understand the ‘feel they deserve simply because...’...yes we’ve all had our share of adversities through life and we’ve all had ‘foundations’ laid for us but I don’t think for younger people their foundation is any more or less smooth, though..but some things are certainly not much ‘easier’ for the younger generation, which I specified earlier in regards to pensions and how much earlier in life, younger people have to ‘plan’ and prepare...and how difficult it can be to progress in jobs in many areas unless academics are achieved...


...’hardships’ has me a bit confused as well...(..sorry, I’m very tired atm..)...but I didn’t infer ‘hardships’ at all, or didn’t intend to, if you feel I did...and yes, we do all live in apparent healthy, safe and free countries...but suicide rates of younger people in healthy, safe and free countries are quite disturbing also as is diagnosed mental illness in young people..in a way that I don’t recall these things so much as being the case back in the day.... of people in their teens and 20s etc...

I'll give an example of something more tangible, to try to keep it concise... Our generation, who we were less politically motivated, we felt entitled to cheaper education and unfettered access to college... so in the States, if you graduate from a community college (no bar to entry), we are generally given instant transfer to any public state college of our choosing in many states.

Well, that cost money, so to soothe that pain we were given grants and low-interest student debt by way of federally backed loans which protected the corporations in case those weren't paid back. However, it didn't come with sort of system of checks to be sure that the investment would even pay off for the student (i.e. a good degree choice). Bush then wrote a law that prevented student loans debt from being "expunged" at bankruptcy to avoid that inevitable balloon in unpaid debt... so those loans are now life-long burdens.

Now that education has skyrocketed in costs, largely influenced by the over-expansion of universities and colleges thanks to thirsty school administrations who pushed initiatives that was supposed to make education more "accessible" and catering as much to demand, many young folk now are asking it should all be free anyway... this is without ever having paid in and requiring no checks and balances in place to be sure the investment in them is even worth it... so someone who wants to take Philosophy or Ancient Chinese History for example as their degree of choice, full well knowing there's almost no job market for those individuals (i.e. no means to pay it back into the system)... is that anything but entitlement?

To add to this, they want to have higher wages for entry level jobs... because yes, they are absolutely coming out of school saddled with mountains of debt on their backs and some so bad, their payments for their student loans are in excess of most mortgages. It also limits their ability to settle down, to get loans to start a business, or even pre-qualify for a home loan at a not so predatory interest rate thanks to their debt to income ratio... while at the same time having to pay some form of rent if they're not living at home in order to maintain some meaningful existence or further their personal development out of the parental home.

As I see it, the system has been doing gymnastics to soothe the "whims" of the younger populations (including Gen X, baby boomers, etc), but it's not paid off. In fact it's backfired tremendously... ... I think in helping them to avoid certain pains, we've only caused more of it, like the mental health crisis as you say... and I feel this way about areas of their lives. Not just education. Many have been sold on a pack of lies... my great grandparents were wise enough to steer their children towards the right course for themselves thanks to the Depression, but we've been giving each generation more and more lofty societal burdens (such as create world peace, etc) that are weighing them emotionally rather than just on giving them skills or basic information necessary just to get them through life and do alright for themselves...

[Kizzy]

Sorry philosophers nose to the grindstone.... geddit?

[Marsh.]

Yes, let's use twitter as a stick to beat the youths with.

There's idiot tweeters from all generations, I mean you use it yourself LT.

[smudgie]

I don’t think much changes over the generations on a moral compass.
With the media and all this internet stuff we get to see more of what’s going on, or in the case of fake news what isn’t.
There will be, and has always been different degrees of morals right across the board generation wise.
I do see more of a feeling of entitlement now compared to my day, but in all honesty I think it is more down to expectations that have altered due to better chances we have in life, and its not just the younger generation that feel this way, we should all expect to have the chance to do well in our life.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Yes, let's use twitter as a stick to beat the youths with.

There's idiot tweeters from all generations, I mean you use it yourself LT.

masterful

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Maru

I'll give an example of something more tangible, to try to keep it concise... Our generation, who we were less politically motivated, we felt entitled to cheaper education and unfettered access to college... so in the States, if you graduate from a community college (no bar to entry), we are generally given instant transfer to any public state college of our choosing in many states.

Well, that cost money, so to soothe that pain we were given grants and low-interest student debt by way of federally backed loans which protected the corporations in case those weren't paid back. However, it didn't come with sort of system of checks to be sure that the investment would even pay off for the student (i.e. a good degree choice). Bush then wrote a law that prevented student loans debt from being "expunged" at bankruptcy to avoid that inevitable balloon in unpaid debt... so those loans are now life-long burdens.

Now that education has skyrocketed in costs, largely influenced by the over-expansion of universities and colleges thanks to thirsty school administrations who pushed initiatives that was supposed to make education more "accessible" and catering as much to demand, many young folk now are asking it should all be free anyway... this is without ever having paid in and requiring no checks and balances in place to be sure the investment in them is even worth it... so someone who wants to take Philosophy or Ancient Chinese History for example as their degree of choice, full well knowing there's almost no job market for those individuals (i.e. no means to pay it back into the system)... is that anything but entitlement?

To add to this, they want to have higher wages for entry level jobs... because yes, they are absolutely coming out of school saddled with mountains of debt on their backs and some so bad, their payments for their student loans are in excess of most mortgages. It also limits their ability to settle down, to get loans to start a business, or even pre-qualify for a home loan at a not so predatory interest rate thanks to their debt to income ratio... while at the same time having to pay some form of rent if they're not living at home in order to maintain some meaningful existence or further their personal development out of the parental home.

As I see it, the system has been doing gymnastics to soothe the "whims" of the younger populations (including Gen X, baby boomers, etc), but it's not paid off. In fact it's backfired tremendously... ... I think in helping them to avoid certain pains, we've only caused more of it, like the mental health crisis as you say... and I feel this way about areas of their lives. Not just education. Many have been sold on a pack of lies... my great grandparents were wise enough to steer their children towards the right course for themselves thanks to the Depression, but we've been giving each generation more and more lofty societal burdens (such as create world peace, etc) that are weighing them emotionally rather than just on giving them skills or basic information necessary just to get them through life and do alright for themselves...

.....hmmmm, no...that doesn’t really answer my confusion or the post quoting my post...but no worries, Maru...I’m just going to leave the thread../..topic now...

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Ammi

.....hmmmm, no...that doesn’t really answer my confusion or the post quoting my post...but no worries, Maru...I’m just going to leave the thread../..topic now...

Gotcha

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

And yet at the same time, you also tend to brand most young people as "lefties", meaning socialists... when socialist policies are the OPPOSITE of being "out for oneself" and right-leaning capitalism is the very definition of self-serving. How can young people be both "only out for themselves", and ALSO "bleeding heart lefty socialists".

Because the youngsters you mention are not so much thinking of others as jumping on bandwagons and making their voices heard. That is their main motivation in my opinion which is based on self-interest and challenging the system.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Because the youngsters you mention are not so much thinking of others as jumping on bandwagons and making their voices heard. That is their main motivation in my opinion which is based on self-interest and challenging the system.

But if you are on a bandwagon it's not a self interest is it, it's a shared interest?....

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

But if you are on a bandwagon it's not a self interest is it, it's a shared interest?....

Rebellious teens who will say and do the complete opposite of what their parents say to piss them off. Real grown up stuff. They usually see the error of their ways further down the line when they actually have assets they value.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Rebellious teens who will say and do the complete opposite of what their parents say to piss them off. Real grown up stuff. They usually see the error of their ways further down the line when they actually have assets they value.

what assets? 25% ownership of a poky flat or mountain of student debt?
all curtesy of the older selfish generations who went to university for free and now sit pretty in their ever-increasing- in-value houses and enjoy their secure pensions

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

what assets? 25% ownership of a poky flat or mountain of student debt?
all curtesy of the older selfish generations who went to university for free and now sit pretty in their ever-increasing- in-value houses and enjoy their secure pensions

Ouch - you sound very bitter. You don’t have to go to uni to get a well paid job or get a mortgage. Get an apprenticeship and when qualified you can earn enough to get a mortgage if you manage your money properly. Too many people today want it all at once and for free. Older generations saved and went without to own their own house - many today aren’t prepared to do that.

Why should those that don’t go to uni pay for those that do - who will reap the financial rewards and earn more than those that paid for it for them. Is that your idea of fair? Sounds pretty damn selfish to me.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Why should those that don’t go to uni pay for those that do - who will reap the financial rewards and earn more than those that paid for it for them. Is that your idea of fair? Sounds pretty damn selfish to me.

Because countries with better levels of higher education have higher economic output, and therefore easy access to good quality higher education is beneficial to all citizens and not just those who actually gain qualifications from it, due to increased GDP and increased tax revenue across the board.

I agree that there are too many pointless degrees or, rather, too many people in certain degrees (no degree is really pointless, but thousands of people with the same degree when there are a limited number of opportunities in that field is pointless) and so I think that entry requirements should potentially be higher... and I also think that the VAST majority of people would do well to take two or three years after school to really think about their next steps. Quite honestly... I think in theory I would probably support a minimum age of 21 for University entry.

But in general... higher education is a good thing for all, Brillo.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Because countries with better levels of higher education have higher economic output, and therefore easy access to good quality higher education is beneficial to all citizens and not just those who actually gain qualifications from it, due to increased GDP and increased tax revenue across the board.

I agree that there are too many pointless degrees or, rather, too many people in certain degrees (no degree is really pointless, but thousands of people with the same degree when there are a limited number of opportunities in that field is pointless) and so I think that entry requirements should potentially be higher... and I also think that the VAST majority of people would do well to take two or three years after school to really think about their next steps. Quite honestly... I think in theory I would probably support a minimum age of 21 for University entry.

But in general... higher education is a good thing for all, Brillo.

If everyone has a uni degree they will lose their value and there simply won’t be jobs for everyone and salaries will go down surely. No economy can accommodate everyone having degrees. And those that benefit the most will be those with the degrees so I don’t agree it should be free as a right.

We need skilled people across the board - and it doesn’t have to be based on a uni degree but people also want the prestige of having a degree. It is always a selfish decision and has little to do with higher education generally being good for all.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Ouch - you sound very bitter. You don’t have to go to uni to get a well paid job or get a mortgage. Get an apprenticeship and when qualified you can earn enough to get a mortgage if you manage your money properly. Too many people today want it all at once and for free. Older generations saved and went without to own their own house - many today aren’t prepared to do that.

Why should those that don’t go to uni pay for those that do - who will reap the financial rewards and earn more than those that paid for it for them. Is that your idea of fair? Sounds pretty damn selfish to me.

I'm sorry but that's bs
your average person in full time employment can't just save and buy a house anymore have you checked average house price vs. average pay recently?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

I'm sorry but that's bs
your average person in full time employment can't just save and buy a house anymore have you checked average house price vs. average pay recently?

So why should the average person pay for your education so you can buy a house? You want a house , you pay for it. Makes sense to me.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Rebellious teens who will say and do the complete opposite of what their parents say to piss them off. Real grown up stuff. They usually see the error of their ways further down the line when they actually have assets they value.

What.. So how do you explain left leaning people of all ages with 'assets they value'?...

[Beso]

Yeah....its payday...i voted no.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Ouch - you sound very bitter. You don’t have to go to uni to get a well paid job or get a mortgage. Get an apprenticeship and when qualified you can earn enough to get a mortgage if you manage your money properly. Too many people today want it all at once and for free. Older generations saved and went without to own their own house - many today aren’t prepared to do that.

Why should those that don’t go to uni pay for those that do - who will reap the financial rewards and earn more than those that paid for it for them. Is that your idea of fair? Sounds pretty damn selfish to me.

And you sound very sanctimonious, it's ok for you to bleat about the yoof and their perceived flaws but you have no idea of the issues they face today that past generations didn't have to deal with. There is much greater pressure now due to increased financial and economic changes.

Who reaps the rewards of education?....Society! The economy
It's dearer now to rent than buy, and who can survive on apprentice wages.. do you know what apprenticeships pay?

I'm sorry but as usual you post just smacks of an 'I'm alright jack' mentality you haven't given on thought to the changing educational or employment structures in the UK it's just one long bleat void of any logic or reason.