[Kazanne]

well this is an interesting read is people are interested
http://truthformadeleine.com/2012/01...tunnel-vision/

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

well this is an interesting read is people are interested
http://truthformadeleine.com/2012/01...tunnel-vision/

Thanks Kaz

The words 'can of worms' comes to mind.....

What's really sad is that in all of this a little girl may never get the justice she deserves because there's so much speculation coming from every angle....

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

Thanks Kaz

The words 'can of worms' comes to mind.....

What's really sad is that in all of this a little girl may never get the justice she deserves because there's so much speculation coming from every angle....

So true Rubymoo,I wonder of the truth will ever come to

[Z]

My heart broke for April Jones's parents, their little girl was playing outside, they thought she was safe but she wasn't. My heart broke for Sarah Payne's parents when the same thing happened to her, and it did for Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman's parents. With the McCanns, the FACT that Madeleine going missing was more obviously avoidable (lock your door, take them with you to dinner, put them in the creche, don't take them on holiday if you don't want to be Mum and Dad for a couple of weeks and spend time with friends) immediately sets it apart from just 'don't let your kids out of your sight' scenarios like all of the above and many other high profile cases. That in itself doesn't make them guilty of anything or deserving of any criticism beyond the obvious, it's their attitude that's the problem. Everyone deals with grief differently, that much I agree on. But actively not cooperating with the authorities who are trying to eliminate all avenues of possibility in order to determine what happened or didn't happen immediately makes you look guilty of something; not physically searching for your child and immediately using past tense language, referring to 'they', 'abduction' and 'what would have been' is not natural to people who have lost someone. My friend's brother in law went missing in Glasgow last Spring and has yet to be found; the family DO NOT use past tense language and talk about him as if he's dead, they very much believe and need to believe that he is alive and that anything other than death has happened, even if it's what a lot of us assume.

But all of that could be brushed under the carpet and written off as the words and actions of people in shock and grief... if, at some point, they came around to helping the authorities to help them. Instead, they have been combative, aggressively suing anyone criticising them and have been working the media for sensationalist headlines more impressively than any reality TV or pop star could dream of. Are we any further forward in finding her? No. Is that because the McCanns, the people who know the most, have not been cooperative? Yes. We can speculate as to why that might be, and my personal belief is that they have guilty consciences, but we'll never know what happened to that little girl until they find a body, someone admits guilt or they finally open up and tell the police what they know and submit to the legal process instead of blocking it and ultimately not helping their own flesh and blood.

I think that's my real gripe with them - I don't really care what their personal motivations are for not cooperating (if they're innocent) and I'm sure (if they're innocent) those reasons are valid in some way... but their little girl is the one suffering the most as a result of this lack of cooperation and I think that makes them TERRIBLE parents and excludes them from deserving any kind of public goodwill.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Just doing a bit more reading on this, is it true that one of the Irish people who saw a man carrying a child towards the Beach actually specifically identified that man as being Gerry McCann???

Praia da Luz, 03 May 2007, just before 10:00pm

The Smith family, from Ireland are returning to their apartment after a night out. As they walk, they pass a man carrying a child in his arms. The man averts his eyes from them to signal that he does not wish to speak.

Four months later, back in Ireland, the Smith family are watching TV. They see the McCanns return to the UK and observe Gerry McCann alight the aeroplane and walk across the tarmac with a sleeping Sean in his arms.

The father, Martin Smith, is shocked. He recognises the way the man turns his head down and the way the child is being held against the shoulder.

It is exactly the same as the man he saw on the streets of Praia da Luz, four months earlier.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Just doing a bit more reading on this, is it true that one of the Irish people who saw a man carrying a child towards the Beach actually specifically identified that man as being Gerry McCann???

Praia da Luz, 03 May 2007, just before 10:00pm

The Smith family, from Ireland are returning to their apartment after a night out. As they walk, they pass a man carrying a child in his arms. The man averts his eyes from them to signal that he does not wish to speak.

Four months later, back in Ireland, the Smith family are watching TV. They see the McCanns return to the UK and observe Gerry McCann alight the aeroplane and walk across the tarmac with a sleeping Sean in his arms.

The father, Martin Smith, is shocked. He recognises the way the man turns his head down and the way the child is being held against the shoulder.

It is exactly the same as the man he saw on the streets of Praia da Luz, four months earlier.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html

Not quite, I believe he said he was 60 (or 80%) sure the guy was gerry that he saw..


Funnily enough after a visit from the McCanns private investigators he retracted this.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Not quite, I believe he said he was 60 (or 80%) sure the guy was gerry that he saw..


Funnily enough after a visit from the McCanns private investigators he retracted this.

Curiouser and curiouser

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Curiouser and curiouser

Yes, the case really is not whiter than white like our press would (now) have you believe. Nor were the Portuguese police as bad as people will tell you

Its usually stated in an effort to discredit the police that they didn't seal off the apartment and such. Whats rarely mentioned is that they were not called until 40 minutes after the child was discovered missing and by then there had been endless tramples through the apartment by various people. While Kate and gerry did not bother to even ****ing LOOK for their missing child?! Its all just too unbelievable and it honestly riles me sometimes that anyone can look at this and say it was an abduction by a stranger. Jesus christ...the main thing that kate says made her think of an abduction as the 'jemmied shutters' and open curtain and wind blowing through the apartment, but this never happened..no shutters had been smashed or tampered with or anything. Its just insane.

Niamh if you have developed a need to look into this, might I suggest this http://l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun.com/Key_Problems.html . Various 'problems' with the official line. Some of the entries contain parts of personal opinion but the huge majority of it is backed up by police files and such. Having said that, reading the files is good..no opinion at all in those. Also the truth of the lie documentary is interesting if you have an hour or so to kill ;p

[Z]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yes, the case really is not whiter than white like our press would (now) have you believe. Nor were the Portuguese police as bad as people will tell you

Its usually stated in an effort to discredit the police that they didn't seal off the apartment and such. Whats rarely mentioned is that they were not called until 40 minutes after the child was discovered missing and by then there had been endless tramples through the apartment by various people. While Kate and gerry did not bother to even ****ing LOOK for their missing child?! Its all just too unbelievable and it honestly riles me sometimes that anyone can look at this and say it was an abduction by a stranger. Jesus christ...the main thing that kate says made her think of an abduction as the 'jemmied shutters' and open curtain and wind blowing through the apartment, but this never happened..no shutters had been smashed or tampered with or anything. Its just insane.

The outright lies they've told and the lack of mainstream press coverage of those lies, and the personal involvement of senior politicians all smacks of friends in high places orchestrating a cover up. They're far more intelligent than the average person, they have the connections, they're going to use both of those things to their advantage. I don't think any of that adds up to guilt on its own, but when you take it all into consideration, there's certainly a nefarious motive to all of this subversive behaviour.

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yes, the case really is not whiter than white like our press would (now) have you believe. Nor were the Portuguese police as bad as people will tell you

Its usually stated in an effort to discredit the police that they didn't seal off the apartment and such. Whats rarely mentioned is that they were not called until 40 minutes after the child was discovered missing and by then there had been endless tramples through the apartment by various people. While Kate and gerry did not bother to even ****ing LOOK for their missing child?! Its all just too unbelievable and it honestly riles me sometimes that anyone can look at this and say it was an abduction by a stranger. Jesus christ...the main thing that kate says made her think of an abduction as the 'jemmied shutters' and open curtain and wind blowing through the apartment, but this never happened..no shutters had been smashed or tampered with or anything. Its just insane.

Niamh if you have developed a need to look into this, might I suggest this http://l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun.com/Key_Problems.html . Various 'problems' with the official line. Some of the entries contain parts of personal opinion but the huge majority of it is backed up by police files and such. Having said that, reading the files is good..no opinion at all in those. Also the truth of the lie documentary is interesting if you have an hour or so to kill ;p

I watched this yesterday and found it fascinating, and possibly what really happened.....

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by Z

My heart broke for April Jones's parents, their little girl was playing outside, they thought she was safe but she wasn't. My heart broke for Sarah Payne's parents when the same thing happened to her, and it did for Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman's parents. With the McCanns, the FACT that Madeleine going missing was more obviously avoidable (lock your door, take them with you to dinner, put them in the creche, don't take them on holiday if you don't want to be Mum and Dad for a couple of weeks and spend time with friends) immediately sets it apart from just 'don't let your kids out of your sight' scenarios like all of the above and many other high profile cases. That in itself doesn't make them guilty of anything or deserving of any criticism beyond the obvious, it's their attitude that's the problem. Everyone deals with grief differently, that much I agree on. But actively not cooperating with the authorities who are trying to eliminate all avenues of possibility in order to determine what happened or didn't happen immediately makes you look guilty of something; not physically searching for your child and immediately using past tense language, referring to 'they', 'abduction' and 'what would have been' is not natural to people who have lost someone. My friend's brother in law went missing in Glasgow last Spring and has yet to be found; the family DO NOT use past tense language and talk about him as if he's dead, they very much believe and need to believe that he is alive and that anything other than death has happened, even if it's what a lot of us assume.

But all of that could be brushed under the carpet and written off as the words and actions of people in shock and grief... if, at some point, they came around to helping the authorities to help them. Instead, they have been combative, aggressively suing anyone criticising them and have been working the media for sensationalist headlines more impressively than any reality TV or pop star could dream of. Are we any further forward in finding her? No. Is that because the McCanns, the people who know the most, have not been cooperative? Yes. We can speculate as to why that might be, and my personal belief is that they have guilty consciences, but we'll never know what happened to that little girl until they find a body, someone admits guilt or they finally open up and tell the police what they know and submit to the legal process instead of blocking it and ultimately not helping their own flesh and blood.

I think that's my real gripe with them - I don't really care what their personal motivations are for not cooperating (if they're innocent) and I'm sure (if they're innocent) those reasons are valid in some way... but their little girl is the one suffering the most as a result of this lack of cooperation and I think that makes them TERRIBLE parents and excludes them from deserving any kind of public goodwill.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

I watched this yesterday and found it fascinating, and possibly what really happened.....

Honestly, I see it as the most likely thing. The abductor nonsense seems like fairytales, especially when not a jot of evidence has ever supported that theory...whereas evidence (not total, I give you that, but some) does indeed point towards the Portuguese polices' conclusion

The only part of Amarals theory that I disagree with is them moving the body in the hire car months later. I just cant get my head round that, as I don't like to think of anyone as pure evil...and to find your child dead, make such a circus of it, hide their body, then move it a month or so later..I just cannot believe anyone could do that. I believe the body was hidden that night, and possibly moved in the early hours, when gerry finally decided to go and 'search' for his missing daughter. I fully believe the only reason she hasn't been found is down to 'luck'.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yes, the case really is not whiter than white like our press would (now) have you believe. Nor were the Portuguese police as bad as people will tell you

Its usually stated in an effort to discredit the police that they didn't seal off the apartment and such. Whats rarely mentioned is that they were not called until 40 minutes after the child was discovered missing and by then there had been endless tramples through the apartment by various people. While Kate and gerry did not bother to even ****ing LOOK for their missing child?! Its all just too unbelievable and it honestly riles me sometimes that anyone can look at this and say it was an abduction by a stranger. Jesus christ...the main thing that kate says made her think of an abduction as the 'jemmied shutters' and open curtain and wind blowing through the apartment, but this never happened..no shutters had been smashed or tampered with or anything. Its just insane.

Niamh if you have developed a need to look into this, might I suggest this http://l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun.com/Key_Problems.html . Various 'problems' with the official line. Some of the entries contain parts of personal opinion but the huge majority of it is backed up by police files and such. Having said that, reading the files is good..no opinion at all in those. Also the truth of the lie documentary is interesting if you have an hour or so to kill ;p

Agree with this. The Portuguese Police looked bad due to stories that came out in our press and we now think those stories were leaked by the McCanns press team. Right from the beginning the MCCanns were very uncooperative.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Z

The outright lies they've told and the lack of mainstream press coverage of those lies, and the personal involvement of senior politicians all smacks of friends in high places orchestrating a cover up. They're far more intelligent than the average person, they have the connections, they're going to use both of those things to their advantage. I don't think any of that adds up to guilt on its own, but when you take it all into consideration, there's certainly a nefarious motive to all of this subversive behaviour.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yes, the case really is not whiter than white like our press would (now) have you believe. Nor were the Portuguese police as bad as people will tell you

Its usually stated in an effort to discredit the police that they didn't seal off the apartment and such. Whats rarely mentioned is that they were not called until 40 minutes after the child was discovered missing and by then there had been endless tramples through the apartment by various people. While Kate and gerry did not bother to even ****ing LOOK for their missing child?! Its all just too unbelievable and it honestly riles me sometimes that anyone can look at this and say it was an abduction by a stranger. Jesus christ...the main thing that kate says made her think of an abduction as the 'jemmied shutters' and open curtain and wind blowing through the apartment, but this never happened..no shutters had been smashed or tampered with or anything. Its just insane.

Niamh if you have developed a need to look into this, might I suggest this http://l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun.com/Key_Problems.html . Various 'problems' with the official line. Some of the entries contain parts of personal opinion but the huge majority of it is backed up by police files and such. Having said that, reading the files is good..no opinion at all in those. Also the truth of the lie documentary is interesting if you have an hour or so to kill ;p

Thanks Vicky, been watching the you tubes Chuff linked the last few days and I will take a look at your ones too

[Suze]

There was the use of a child monitoring service wasn't there? so why did they not use it? I am beginning to wonder if maybe Madeleine was never in the apartment to start with that night. Too much focus anywhere than where it should have been re the case and that should be Madeleine, and too much hindrance maybe re the case at the start when any clues and such would have been vital.

I don't think we are ever going to know what happened unless there ever comes a time for a deathbed confession somewhere re the case.

Bless Madeleine and all the little children who go missing and are never found.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

I'm sad none of you have any clue about police process

Really sad

[erinp5]

Dad left daughter, two, in car for 10 minutes and it nearly cost him his family: Dash to the chemist for Calpol classed as 'child neglect'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...lear-name.html


And The Mc Cann's leave three children in an apt while they go and eat and drink....nothing .

Gerry Mc Cann makes my skin crawl.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I'm sad none of you have any clue about police process

Really sad

Are you sad that some of those who do have a vague clue about it also don't give a vague f*** about it?

[Z]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I'm sad none of you have any clue about police process

Really sad

The police have put more effort into this case than most and I think it's an affront to both our forces and the Portuguese forces involved that they have been as uncooperative as possible. Who does that when it's their missing child involved?!?

[*mazedsalv**]

I personally think as I said, they are either guilty or know something.

BUT I will post something in their defence. So, they wanted to eat out? Could they have brought the children with them? Most of these hotels have "Mini Disco" events that children go to whilst the parents are eating/drinking. BUT, what's to say that even that would be safer? How many parents have let their children go on stage for Mini Discos while the parents are near, but still out of reach? LOTS. I know me and my sister (i was 5, she was 8) were left at the Mini Disco with the other kids and the kid entertainers. BUT then again, me and my sis could have been snatched too there and then.

If your going to get snatched, you're going to get snatched. Whether it's among a group of kids (an abductor could approach a kid at the play area posing to the entertainers that they are a parent) or alone in the hotel room.

What I'm saying is what parents do nowadays is still not safe as like I said there is always a play area/mini disco in hotel resorts now, so should parents not allow kids to go to them?

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by *mazedsalv**

I personally think as I said, they are either guilty or know something.

BUT I will post something in their defence. So, they wanted to eat out? Could they have brought the children with them? Most of these hotels have "Mini Disco" events that children go to whilst the parents are eating/drinking. BUT, what's to say that even that would be safer? How many parents have let their children go on stage for Mini Discos while the parents are near, but still out of reach? LOTS. I know me and my sister (i was 5, she was 8) were left at the Mini Disco with the other kids and the kid entertainers. BUT then again, me and my sis could have been snatched too there and then.

If your going to get snatched, you're going to get snatched. Whether it's among a group of kids (an abductor could approach a kid at the play area posing to the entertainers that they are a parent) or alone in the hotel room.

What I'm saying is what parents do nowadays is still not safe as like I said there is always a play area/mini disco in hotel resorts now, so should parents not allow kids to go to them?

Massive difference between a child being snatched by an opportunist kidnapper in a situation like what you described which is unfortunate and unlucky and actually proactively putting your child in danger, in so so so many different ways like the McCanns did by leaving essentially 3 babies alone in an unlocked apartment. I've already listed out examples of other things that could have happened to them but just take a look at that other thread in SD's about that poor 2 year old who burned to death in her apartment when a fire broke out and she'd been left alone by her mother

ETA : And that mother will probably face the full force of the law for neglect for it too as she isn't a Doctor, she's a stripper

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Are you sad that some of those who do have a vague clue about it also don't give a vague f*** about it?

i am not so sad about that

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Just doing a bit more reading on this, is it true that one of the Irish people who saw a man carrying a child towards the Beach actually specifically identified that man as being Gerry McCann???

Praia da Luz, 03 May 2007, just before 10:00pm

The Smith family, from Ireland are returning to their apartment after a night out. As they walk, they pass a man carrying a child in his arms. The man averts his eyes from them to signal that he does not wish to speak.

Four months later, back in Ireland, the Smith family are watching TV. They see the McCanns return to the UK and observe Gerry McCann alight the aeroplane and walk across the tarmac with a sleeping Sean in his arms.

The father, Martin Smith, is shocked. He recognises the way the man turns his head down and the way the child is being held against the shoulder.

It is exactly the same as the man he saw on the streets of Praia da Luz, four months earlier.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html

Glad more people are looking deeper into this,today in Sun Kate wins an award for her "Selfless work for missing children " a woman who admitted she never even looked for her own child on night one,because she was busy setting up a Limited Company in Maddies name,with herself and Gerry on the board ,making all the decisions what the cash could be used for, so they decided to use it to pay their mortgage !!

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I'm sad none of you have any clue about police process

Really sad

I have a degree in it