[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by Zee

Hypothetically... (as always, theorising away )

They go away on a family holiday with their friends who all have kids too, they decide that it's mostly about the grown ups and it's their time to have some fun so they fob the kids off onto day care for the most part and put them to bed early so they can go out at night. They leave phones, kids and all responsibilities in the rooms and leave the doors unlocked so that every half hour someone can go check on whoever has kids on the holiday with them. Madeleine tells her parents that they woke up and were scared and crying the night before she goes missing; the parents find this an inconvenience so they up her dosage of sleeping pills or whatever form of sedative they're using so she doesn't wake up...

Madeleine does wake up, however, and because she's groggy from the medication, goes through to the living room, perhaps climbs onto the sofa but falls off and hits her head and bleeds to death. Gerry comes back at 9pm and freaks out, perhaps picks her up using some of Kate's clothing (mentioned that there was the scent of death on her clothing - but was that the clothing she was wearing that night?), runs through to the bedroom in a panic (scent of death there?), runs to the car, puts her in the boot, gets rid of the body temporarily (perhaps leaves it in the boot of the car), stages the room to look like a break in, returns to dinner - Kate finds her missing an hour later, Gerry goes out looking for her and uses this time to get rid of the body...

I dunno, I don't really like to think of them as nasty people but I do find their generally unapologetic attitude towards what happened very unpleasant, if not a little bit suspicious. I'd rather believe that she was kidnapped and they were just unfortunately punished for their lax parenting but it is SO rare for these things to happen at the hands of a stranger... that doesn't mean it isn't possible, but statistically, they're always going to be the main suspects.

I think this is the most likely scenario.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Zee

Hypothetically... (as always, theorising away )

They go away on a family holiday with their friends who all have kids too, they decide that it's mostly about the grown ups and it's their time to have some fun so they fob the kids off onto day care for the most part and put them to bed early so they can go out at night. They leave phones, kids and all responsibilities in the rooms and leave the doors unlocked so that every half hour someone can go check on whoever has kids on the holiday with them. Madeleine tells her parents that they woke up and were scared and crying the night before she goes missing; the parents find this an inconvenience so they up her dosage of sleeping pills or whatever form of sedative they're using so she doesn't wake up...

Madeleine does wake up, however, and because she's groggy from the medication, goes through to the living room, perhaps climbs onto the sofa but falls off and hits her head and bleeds to death. Gerry comes back at 9pm and freaks out, perhaps picks her up using some of Kate's clothing (mentioned that there was the scent of death on her clothing - but was that the clothing she was wearing that night?), runs through to the bedroom in a panic (scent of death there?), runs to the car, puts her in the boot, gets rid of the body temporarily (perhaps leaves it in the boot of the car), stages the room to look like a break in, returns to dinner - Kate finds her missing an hour later, Gerry goes out looking for her and uses this time to get rid of the body...

I dunno, I don't really like to think of them as nasty people but I do find their generally unapologetic attitude towards what happened very unpleasant, if not a little bit suspicious. I'd rather believe that she was kidnapped and they were just unfortunately punished for their lax parenting but it is SO rare for these things to happen at the hands of a stranger... that doesn't mean it isn't possible, but statistically, they're always going to be the main suspects.

..but we don't know that she was drugged in any way and why Madeleine and not the twins, in case they woke up and screamed/drew attention to being left alone without a parent...it doesn't really make sense and they're bot doctors..hmm, he's a heart specialist I think, so would they really not know how much drugs/sedatives to give anyway....I don't really believe that with their medical knowledge, they would just 'up a dose'....lol none of the 'conspiracies' make sense.....

[Z]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..but we don't know that she was drugged in any way and why Madeleine and not the twins, in case they woke up and screamed/drew attention to being left alone without a parent...it doesn't really make sense and they're bot doctors..hmm, he's a heart specialist I think, so would they really not know how much drugs/sedatives to give anyway....I don't really believe that with their medical knowledge, they would just 'up a dose'....lol none of the 'conspiracies' make sense.....

Tbh I don't know all that much about the ins and outs and timelines, I'm just basing this on what people have said in this thread - as Vicky said (I just looked it up) the car was hired weeks after she disappeared. They could have all been sedated, I don't know, somebody said they had admitted to sedating their kids. Doctors can get things wrong; and anaesthesia/sedation is a totally different area of medicine, perhaps they weren't too careful about the dosage they gave the kids or maybe they gave them the right amount, but for some reason Madeleine woke up? I don't know. The police dog thing is a very interesting aspect though.

What I wonder though is just because the dogs detected the smell doesn't mean it was Madeleine who they were detecting, does it? Because it says on that website that cadaver dogs have been used to find bodies that have been hidden away for years... so isn't it possible that all of their evidence is circumstantial? Yes, they smelled the presence of a body... but it doesn't have to be Madeleine's... and yes they detected blood on some things... but people get cuts and scrapes all the time. Hmmm...

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by Zee

Tbh I don't know all that much about the ins and outs and timelines, I'm just basing this on what people have said in this thread - as Vicky said (I just looked it up) the car was hired weeks after she disappeared. They could have all been sedated, I don't know, somebody said they had admitted to sedating their kids. Doctors can get things wrong; and anaesthesia/sedation is a totally different area of medicine, perhaps they weren't too careful about the dosage they gave the kids or maybe they gave them the right amount, but for some reason Madeleine woke up? I don't know. The police dog thing is a very interesting aspect though.

What I wonder though is just because the dogs detected the smell doesn't mean it was Madeleine who they were detecting, does it? Because it says on that website that cadaver dogs have been used to find bodies that have been hidden away for years... so isn't it possible that all of their evidence is circumstantial? Yes, they smelled the presence of a body... but it doesn't have to be Madeleine's... and yes they detected blood on some things... but people get cuts and scrapes all the time. Hmmm...

That's true. Kids fall over all the time, especially three year olds. My nephew is the same age and tends to be quite clumsy.

Originally Posted by Zee

Tbh I don't know all that much about the ins and outs and timelines, I'm just basing this on what people have said in this thread - as Vicky said (I just looked it up) the car was hired weeks after she disappeared. They could have all been sedated, I don't know, somebody said they had admitted to sedating their kids. Doctors can get things wrong; and anaesthesia/sedation is a totally different area of medicine, perhaps they weren't too careful about the dosage they gave the kids or maybe they gave them the right amount, but for some reason Madeleine woke up? I don't know. The police dog thing is a very interesting aspect though.

What I wonder though is just because the dogs detected the smell doesn't mean it was Madeleine who they were detecting, does it? Because it says on that website that cadaver dogs have been used to find bodies that have been hidden away for years... so isn't it possible that all of their evidence is circumstantial? Yes, they smelled the presence of a body... but it doesn't have to be Madeleine's... and yes they detected blood on some things... but people get cuts and scrapes all the time. Hmmm...

The dog stuff is not as definitive as has been stated in this thread. If you go back a couple of pages MTVN posted a site exposing the myths about the conspiracy theorists. There is a good section on the dogs, what they actually do, and what actually happened.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

The dog stuff is not as definitive as has been stated in this thread. If you go back a couple of pages MTVN posted a site exposing the myths about the conspiracy theorists. There is a good section on the dogs, what they actually do, and what actually happened.

I'm reading the cwporter one just now, the one that discusses why the McCanns may be guilty, I'm gonna read the one refuting it afterwards just for the sake of clarity (don't want to read the website refuting the one I'm currently reading before I read the one I'm currently reading, it'd be confusing) - depending on whether or not they are covering up her death - they have either been extremely lucky or extremely unlucky that there are so many circumstances that muddy the waters as to whether or not they are guilty...

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Zee

Tbh I don't know all that much about the ins and outs and timelines, I'm just basing this on what people have said in this thread - as Vicky said (I just looked it up) the car was hired weeks after she disappeared. They could have all been sedated, I don't know, somebody said they had admitted to sedating their kids. Doctors can get things wrong; and anaesthesia/sedation is a totally different area of medicine, perhaps they weren't too careful about the dosage they gave the kids or maybe they gave them the right amount, but for some reason Madeleine woke up? I don't know. The police dog thing is a very interesting aspect though.

What I wonder though is just because the dogs detected the smell doesn't mean it was Madeleine who they were detecting, does it? Because it says on that website that cadaver dogs have been used to find bodies that have been hidden away for years... so isn't it possible that all of their evidence is circumstantial? Yes, they smelled the presence of a body... but it doesn't have to be Madeleine's... and yes they detected blood on some things... but people get cuts and scrapes all the time. Hmmm...

Nah it doesn't mean it was her.

Which is why the dogs mean not too much on their own.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Zee

Tbh I don't know all that much about the ins and outs and timelines, I'm just basing this on what people have said in this thread - as Vicky said (I just looked it up) the car was hired weeks after she disappeared. They could have all been sedated, I don't know, somebody said they had admitted to sedating their kids. Doctors can get things wrong; and anaesthesia/sedation is a totally different area of medicine, perhaps they weren't too careful about the dosage they gave the kids or maybe they gave them the right amount, but for some reason Madeleine woke up? I don't know. The police dog thing is a very interesting aspect though.

What I wonder though is just because the dogs detected the smell doesn't mean it was Madeleine who they were detecting, does it? Because it says on that website that cadaver dogs have been used to find bodies that have been hidden away for years... so isn't it possible that all of their evidence is circumstantial? Yes, they smelled the presence of a body... but it doesn't have to be Madeleine's... and yes they detected blood on some things... but people get cuts and scrapes all the time. Hmmm...

..yeah, I'm sure that was said at the time..2/3yr old do get a lot of cuts and bruises and especially running around swimming pools etc in their bare feet..but that's another thing for me...the last pictures of Kate with Madeleine looked like a mum/family enjoying a holiday..and I know they left them in the apartment alone, that I have no understanding for but I just don't see the 'cold' people they would have to be to have covered anything up....I think the timeline was only around one and a half hours from when they went out to dinner until she was missing and they were with friends having a meal most of that time, so it would all seem an awful lot to fit into that space of time if they were involved....

[Vicky.]

IIRC the car wasn't hired until weeks after she disappeared.

But I think the rest sounds about right tbh.

I think it much more likely that the Smith sighting was Gerry personally. Would also explain why the McCanns have largely ignored that sighting, instead focusing on Jane Tanners bogeyman.

[Jamesy]

I think a government cover up is going too far. However a cover up of some sorts could be credible.

Perhaps with the heavy media initially surrounding the case and The McCanns shown as the victims the public reaction was quite phenomenal. May be it was discovered at some point, possibly by a senior team member that The McCanns had some involvement with the disappearance of their daughter, maybe even some form of evidence against them found. Said senior team member shows this to their boss. The boss realises just how big this is, how it could ruin the careers of the investigators and how much it would rip apart the media, said boss and senior team member ensure it stays covered up and would be impossible to link in with The McCanns.

Now this is jumping into the realms of what you would read in something like a Simon Kernick book (or just any crazy crime-thriller novel). It's alarming and unlikely, but quite possible. Certainly not off the record. But I don't know, that's a bit too 'crazy conspiracist' for my liking.

[Vicky.]

I do not believe the government/police coverup story at all.

Tbh I think the police are just as suspicious as some of the public are, but they know they need concrete evidence to make it stick. Last time the McCanns were named as possible suspects, they skipped the country (despite saying they wouldnt leave until MAddie was found)..maybe they don't want a repeat

Also, I have a hunch that the crimewatch thing was about getting more descriptions of the Smith sighting, as I'm sure the police haven't missed that the descriptions appear to match Gerry, nor will they be ignorant of the fact that Smith named Gerry specifically at one point too. I sincerely hope this CCTV footage is found that I have seen mentioned over the past few days.

[Vicky.]

Also I dont think its fair really to write off those questioning the official line as conspiracy theorists. Mainly because conspiracy theories tend to be quite ridiculous and go against mountains of evidence.

While there is no evidence the parents did anything, there is also no actual evidence of an abduction either.

The only facts of this case really are, the parents left her alone, and then she disappeared. And has never been found.

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Also I dont think its fair really to write off those questioning the official line as conspiracy theorists. Mainly because conspiracy theories tend to be quite ridiculous and go against mountains of evidence.

While there is no evidence the parents did anything, there is also no actual evidence of an abduction either.

The only facts of this case really are, the parents left her alone, and then she disappeared. And has never been found.

I wouldn't class you as a conspiracy theorist, but I would class some of the links provided to show the McCanns guilt, of being home to conspiracy theorists. Let's be clear, they are not merely asking questions. The implications are clear, and they believe it's a complete travesty that the McCanns have got away with murdering/covering up the accidental death of their daughter. That's a conspiracy theory, whichever way it's painted.

[Marsh.]

I just think conspiracy theories around a big government cover up is ridiculous.

There's just no reason to cover up the death accidental or otherwise of a 3 year old girl and then continue to allow the search/investigation to continue.

[Vicky.]

I don't see what the government would have to gain by covering anything up (in this case, not in general)

[Tom4784]

I think she's dead but I honestly don't think the parents did it, someone would have slipped up by now or substantial DNA evidence would have come to light. It's damn near impossible to cover up a violent crime if the crime scene is known by the police, they would have left some trace no matter how meticulous they could have been in covering it up.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I think she's dead but I honestly don't think the parents did it, someone would have slipped up by now or substantial DNA evidence would have come to light. It's damn near impossible to cover up a violent crime if the crime scene is known by the police, they would have left some trace no matter how meticulous they could have been in covering it up.

..I think also on the night and in the days/weeks afterwards, their body language would have given it away or they would completely crumbled if they just did something in 'shock' and an immediate reaction because they would know that their daughter was dead in reality...how could they not react to that unless they were completely cold people, which I don't believe they are....

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I think also on the night and in the days/weeks afterwards, their body language would have given it away or they would completely crumbled if they just did something in 'shock' and an immediate reaction because they would know that their daughter was dead in reality...how could they not react to that unless they were completely cold people, which I don't believe they are....

Did you not watch one of the body language videos I posted

[Vicky.]

She seems to be quite emotional to me, and a bit unstable tbh..but given the circumstances I would say that was normal. He comes across cold.

He may just have an unfortunate face/expressions, but it seems he smirks quite often when talking about Madeleine too :S

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

She seems to be quite emotional to me, and a bit unstable tbh..but given the circumstances I would say that was normal. He comes across cold.

He may just have an unfortunate face/expressions, but it seems he smirks quite often when talking about Madeleine too :S

She seems to be controlled by him,I noticed he butts in many a time when she is talking,he may be trying to help her out,but he's a strange one allright.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

She seems to be quite emotional to me, and a bit unstable tbh..but given the circumstances I would say that was normal. He comes across cold.

He may just have an unfortunate face/expressions, but it seems he smirks quite often when talking about Madeleine too :S

..I don't know, I just think that a husband could seem 'cold' if he was trying to control or feel as though he had to control his emotions to be what he thinks his wife would need him to be in a situation like this...to me that's more a sign that it's just him/his character because if he was hiding something, he maybe would want to appear more upset and emotional to garner sympathy...I just think of those parents/relatives etc who have harmed their children and then they go on TV and 'act' an appeal for their whereabouts....

[Kazanne]

Why are some people so sure she didn't wander off? the patio doors were left open.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Why are some people so sure she didn't wander off? the patio doors were left open.

I think there might have been some sightings of a small child wandering round alone if she had just wandered off

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I think there might have been some sightings of a small child wandering round alone if she had just wandered off

Yes there would, but wasn't there talk of some building work going on and also Portugal is littered with shafts etc,whats to say she hasn't slipped down one of those ,and of course there is the Ocean.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Yes there would, but wasn't there talk of some building work going on and also Portugal is littered with shafts etc,whats to say she hasn't slipped down one of those ,and of course there is the Ocean.

Getting to the ocean alone, unseen, would be quite hard for a 3/4 year old IMO. Though I guess nothing is impossible

I have never been to Portugal so didn't know about shafts and such, but I guess that could be a possibility. I would hope the police would have checked avenues like that though