[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by Stu

Youtube video

-Mortality from drug related deaths in Europe [The Netherlands is amongst the lowest].
http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/stats07/drdtab05a

Keep in mind we are now talking about death. Some say death of heroin addicts is solving the problems.
I have a big problem with someone's daughter putting dirty cocks in her mouth so she can lay in a stupor in a piss-smelling alley.
But she isn't DYING from overdoses and so we have a success? Some would argue the pain and horrors are extended.

However, I have a problem with this 2005 survey right away. Netherlands 'among the lowest'. For death. People dying of overdoses.
Which might tell me they are very good at containing hardcore junkies and swiftly getting them to Emergency.
Which is what I did observe in Amsterdam. Authorities have very strict and well-organized expertise in containing junkies.
Goofy tourists who giggle about how a policeman SAW THEM smoking weed and let them go?
What the goofy tourist doesn't know is that the police are deliberately patrolling a perimeter meant to keep you (the goofy weed tourist) FROM entering a danger zone.
Behind that zone is where junkies are doing **** you don't need to know about. Also they would rob you blind.
Each morning a crew in 'hazmat' suits and long sticks arrives in the parks and pokes the bushes.
The dead junkies are obviously dead but any still alive are rushed to hospital.

So yes I do believe that stats reflect what I know about the place. They keep more junkies alive than most anywhere else.

It also tells me there is a massive police presence (which costs tax-payers) and my experience is just that.


But here is the other problem - a helluva lot of hard working Dutch people have to work harder, more days, more hours at their difficult jobs to keep maintaining that excellent ability to keep junkies from dying. So they can be junkies for another year (or until the next time they overdose)

Not that I'm doubting you're fond ability for arguing with logic and statistics but these numbers don't lie.

There are lies, damnable lies and then statistics.

The Netherlands have less heroin addicts and less overdoses than the USA,

It's interesting that they always want to use the USA as an example where certain inner-city neighbourhoods will skew a very high number.

and probably the likes of Canada and Ireland.

I'd suggest that Vancouver has the highest number of heroin addicts and overdoses than any other place in Canada per capita. I've seen more in Toronto but its also a much bigger city.

Not only has their Cannabis policy been highly effective in pacifying their youth with amongst the lowest useage rates in Europe but the safe access to Heroin has been lauded by other member states and copied. And lord knows how much good that taxed dope has done for the country.

I don't know what kind of gimmick statistics are being used to inform this idea that something is pacifying youth to low usage rates. Amsterdam is swarming with stoned youth. I might guess your discounting foreigners or using averages where farmlands and smaller cities are lowering numbers in easy-access areas?

Safe access to heroin is NOT 'lauded' by other EU nations and there has been NON-STOP **** over this situation for many many decades. It's been a major piss-off problem in the EU for a long time and causes all kinds of problems at the borders (drug smuggling etc)

and no, weed does NOT produce tax-revenue good. It costs the Dutch plenty to administer and then the massive police presence in the weed shop areas.
For some reason pro-drug people think weed is a great way to give the government lots of money. it doesn't.

If you look anywhere you will find Heroin addicts injecting themselves in poverty. We have an area for that here in Cork just like you do in Vancouver. Just like they do in Amsterdam in certain concentrated areas. I'm well aware of the problems specifically in Downtown Eastside in Vancouver and to blame that on a liberal dope policy is absurd and without merit. Those people didn't decide to become hooked on Crack because you can get pot easily.

Everyone who starts doing crack or heroin becomes poor. Then they get to hand out in the many charities, food banks, homeless shelters which allows them to steal and rob and scam and ***** full-time to earn enough for more drugs.
They all started doing weed. They loved getting high. then started doing more intense drugs.

Have you ever actually been to Amsterdam?

Yes. Twice. 2 times too many.

It's beautiful. Certain parks are dodgy which you can avoid. The Red Light district is a hotbed of all the things that probably make your winkie shrivel up in regret. But by and large it's a fantastic city and if you think it's a picture of depravity you must not have made it far beyond central station.

It's a ****hole. It is swarming with dirty panhandling hippies, druggies, criminals, *****s, users, scam artists. Not so many where Muslims run neighbourhoods but then there you get the honour-killings.
The only nice places are when you get as far away from the cannibas cafes and heroin-treatment centres.

If you want to see one of the most potent arguments in favour of the relaxing of archaic drug laws then Google yourself 'drug decriminalization in Portugal' though. Spend a few hours having fun and getting educated.

Dirty freeloading hippies.

Ya there is nothing like drug decriminalization websites online. They seem to be written by the same kind who make '911 Truther' websites and have mastered the pick-n-choose.
IF they can find some statistics to play with in Portugal they demand this become 'THE FACT' (as they interpret it),
yet,
will never so much as mention opium was, for all intents and purposes, made 'legal' in China and there was nothing short of a national tragedy devastating that country as millions became dying zombies.
Then,
When ALL drugs were banned and opium fiends executed the problem ends. That's why you can get shot for selling marijuana in China and why I don't have to put up with pot-heads, crackheads or any junkies anywhere in China.
They don't mention weed is zero-tolerance illegal in Japan and they have very few junkies.
They ignore a dozen examples where 'therapy' methods did nothing and crime, blackmarket, overdoses just carry on or increase.

[Conor]

^^ Same kinda system in Greece. No legal drinking limit. Barely any young Greek people drink and when they do it isn't very much. A lot more fancy coffees are sold in the fancy nightclubs in Athens, Thessaloniki and Heraklion than alcohol. Although this could be a slight blow for the economy in the Netherlands, there isn't going to be any major collapse in tourism. Plenty more to see and do there. If anything there will be a lot less of our chavs hanging about in Amsterdam = SUCCESS. I doubt the law will be passed though. It would b a pity if it was. The Netherlands is iconic for its coffee shops.

[Stu]

It would see a huge drop in tourists. I know it's still a fantastic city, really awesome, but without the coffee shops it looses it's one big appeal and has to compete with other cities like Prague, Dublin, Berlin etc as being really overpriced tourist hotspots.

Whatever happens in Dutchland the rest of the world is moving the other way anyway. The Netherlands is only famous because of the coffee shops. The laws in places like Spain, Portugal and the Czech Republic are far more liberal. It's actually properly decriminalized in those countries.

Every drug is decriminalized for personal posession in the Czech Republic, right down to the amounts. It's actually written into the law that you can carry up to five individual sheets of acid. Crazy stuff.

[Niamh.]

They'd take a huge hit in their Tourism industry if they ban it

[MTVN]

Am I the only one who finds ElProximo's posting style incredibly annoying?

[InOne]

All that text makes me dizzy

[Stu]

Spoiler:

I don't even know where to start with that poorly worded diatribe of white noise. I really would encourage you to research drug decriminalization in Portugal. It has been a massive, massive success and I'm not talking about sourcing your facts and figures from some New Age geocities website, I'm talking about hard, obvious data.

The Netherlands does have a noticeably low teenage rates of Cannabis use and yes I am discounting tourists from that statistic. Dutch natives really don't take advantage of the lax laws as much as you would think. It's amazing watching you tear apart and make up amazing excuses for any statistic or factual piece of information someone throws your way.

No matter how visible junkies might be in concentrated cesspools in Amsterdam the simple fact is Dutch teens are less likely to use Cannabis than the average, are less likely to use Heroin than the average and are less likely to die of a drug overdose. Less drug use. Less drug fatalities. It's there in countless studies. Countless studies.

This also contradicts of all things a gateway drug hypothesis argument that you posed. The gateway drug argument has never been scientifically validated or accepted on any level. You will find the whole 'well they started on Cannabis' argument stems further back and that those type of statements could be converted to 'well they started on alcohol' or 'they started on cigarettes' even though making such declerations are still pointless and still without merit because only tiny minority of Cannabis users will happen to move on to harder drugs just like a tiny minority of drinkers will move on to harder drugs.

The argument is without place anyway. Again you blame Cannabis use for leading Dutch teens to try Heroin and Crack but as I have already said and as has already been proven by countless studies and statistics Dutch teens are below the E.U. average for both Cannabis use and hard drug use.

The only reason by the way the Dutch are experiencing border problems is because number one border countries themselves still maintain more archaic, behind the times drug laws that are not compatible with the more progressive Dutch policies and because number two the Dutch have not yet got the balls to go the full distance with liberal Cannabis laws.

They ignore Cannabis. This means they do not arrest you for it but they also do not control it, which they should. They do not control the supply. The supply is left to the hands of the cladestine, often criminal underground who are willing to kill the competition for profit because the market is unregulated.

But the real hillarity of your pissant, warped diatribe comes when you declare that Cannabis is not a viable source of tax revenue. This is in complete contradiction with the words from the mouths of the Amsterdam city council who are against this bill, members of Dutch parliament past and present, and countless documented evidence.

Have you any idea, any idea at all how much tax money the Dutch make from tourists coming over to smoke pot? It more than pays off the extra police - and I'm sure there arrest record for Cannabis related violence is just towering and towering, isin't it - and it doesn't need to pay off the system being in place like you said because it's costing the Dutch nothing save for police presence ignoring Cannabis. Verus billions other countries spend fighting it.

And that's me finished with you. You will no doubt find a way to continually subvert and distort whatever facts and figures I present to you which makes arguing with you a fucking fruitless endeavour. As we all well know you are completely incompatible with reality, completely incompatible with logic, and quite possibly just a small bit mad.

Any attempt I make at providing a coherent argument would no doubt be knocked down by a tower of text designed to exhibit a powerful display of knowledge but that in reality just boils down to the same anger, resentment and cliched points made again and again and again and again and again. I'm not going to continue debate about drugs of all things with someone who believes Satan is real, is here and is torturing God's children. Fuck that for a game of toy soldiers.

Hugs and kisses.

[Ramsay]

stu

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by Stu

Spoiler:

I don't even know where to start with that poorly worded diatribe of white noise.

Spoiler:

You start with 'hand waving' insults because you can't handle going back to the start:
Where you cherry-picked some statistics and added your own misinterpretations, opinions, added assertions, uncalled-for assertions and I called you on it.

I really would encourage you to research drug decriminalization in Portugal. It has been a massive, massive success and I'm not talking about sourcing your facts and figures from some New Age geocities website, I'm talking about hard, obvious data.

Fail.
I already caught you out on this. Remember this - your making the claim easy access is a CAUSE of reduced usage and abuse.
So picking the TOP example you can find doesn't do that when there is a number of countries with ZERO tolerance, strict law & order solution and they have LOW drug abuse.
Low drug use.
Some nearly non-existent drug use and abuse.
Sorry you don't understand why that blows your use of Portugal as something 'arguing for your claim',
but,
maybe you can go take courses on sociology and stats somewhere.

The Netherlands does have a noticeably low teenage rates of Cannabis use

No it doesn't.

and yes I am discounting tourists from that statistic.

Who said you get to discount them. Are they doing more drugs when they have easier access?

Dutch natives really don't take advantage of the lax laws as much as you would think. It's amazing watching you tear apart and make up amazing excuses for any statistic or factual piece of information someone throws your way.

I'm the Fact Protector here. Catching you trying to bluff opinion, drug propaganda, myths and abuse statistics.

No matter how visible junkies might be in concentrated cesspools in Amsterdam the simple fact is Dutch teens are less likely to use Cannabis than the average,

Ohhh but wait... YOU want to tell us that easy-access and availability causes LOWER drug use and abuse.
So YOU ought not try and use 'averages' but show where rural Dutch have worse problems. Those raised and living among Canabis Cafes ought to have less junkies right?
or what?

are less likely to use Heroin than the average and are less likely to die of a drug overdose. Less drug use. Less drug fatalities. It's there in countless studies. Countless studies.

Again, drug use and death are two different things. You can show that the Dutch's very high police presence and containment and surveillance of junkies = high resuscitation and rescue.
allowing junkies to live for many more years in parks getting high?

See how you 'state a fact' but you then mistakenly decide what it 'concludes' and what it 'means'?
stop that.

This also contradicts of all things a gateway drug hypothesis argument that you posed. The gateway drug argument has never been scientifically validated or accepted on any level. You will find the whole 'well they started on Cannabis' argument stems further back and that those type of statements could be converted to 'well they started on alcohol' or 'they started on cigarettes' even though making such declerations are still pointless and still without merit because only tiny minority of Cannabis users will happen to move on to harder drugs just like a tiny minority of drinkers will move on to harder drugs.

Smoking weed and getting high isn't a 'gateway'. It is arriving. It is drug use. Practicing drug use. to get high. Stoned. It might be the safest start.

The argument is without place anyway. Again you blame Cannabis use for leading Dutch teens to try Heroin and Crack but as I have already said and as has already been proven by countless studies and statistics Dutch teens are below the E.U. average for both Cannabis use and hard drug use.

No, they aren't especially low but you have to keep in mind weed smoking is all over the EU.
Rarely does anyone start with crack. They get baked on weed. Like the feeling of being high and work their way up.
Mind you.. prescription pills might be replacing marijuana as 'starter drugs' for teens.
BTW - why are you now limiting your group to teens anyways? Trying to hide something or what?

The only reason by the way the Dutch are experiencing border problems is because number one border countries themselves still maintain more archaic, behind the times drug laws that are not compatible with the more progressive Dutch policies and because number two the Dutch have not yet got the balls to go the full distance with liberal Cannabis laws.

So just to be clear on what you are saying here - the only reason other countries are complaining is simply because they won't revert their laws to old Dutch style laws.
Parents having problems with your kids bringing drugs home? Solve this by simply allowing it!
Then its no longer a problem see?

I bet you don't think that when some junkies decide to smash your car windows in for some crack.
But hey.. just give them crack and let them borrow your car! Problem solved!

They ignore Cannabis. This means they do not arrest you for it but they also do not control it, which they should. They do not control the supply. The supply is left to the hands of the cladestine, often criminal underground who are willing to kill the competition for profit because the market is unregulated.

So stop giving money to thugs and murderers and criminal organizations?
It really is that simple.

But the real hillarity of your pissant, warped diatribe comes when you declare that Cannabis is not a viable source of tax revenue. This is in complete contradiction with the words from the mouths of the Amsterdam city council who are against this bill, members of Dutch parliament past and present, and countless documented evidence.

Really? because I never seem to find any good figures on that. The weed itself and then the admin that goes into that. I don't care how much the coffee shop itself makes either. I mean the weed.

Have you any idea, any idea at all how much tax money the Dutch make from tourists coming over to smoke pot? It more than pays off the extra police - and I'm sure there arrest record for Cannabis related violence is just towering and towering, isin't it - and it doesn't need to pay off the system being in place like you said because it's costing the Dutch nothing save for police presence ignoring Cannabis. Verus billions other countries spend fighting it.

This is quite a great opinion. It's funny but I never see any really good figures on the tax revenue made from marijuana sales.

And that's me finished with you. You will no doubt find a way to continually subvert and distort whatever facts and figures I present to you which makes arguing with you a fucking fruitless endeavour. As we all well know you are completely incompatible with reality, completely incompatible with logic, and quite possibly just a small bit mad.

Nothing but opinions and assertions from you.

Any attempt I make at providing a coherent argument would no doubt be knocked down

You never built one. You just made opinions, assertions, misinterpretations of facts and 'conclusions' that were not called for.

Meanwhile, I live in the real world and dealt with drugs my entire life and have the misfortune of being stuck in that **** city full of drug addicts and wasteful hippies and muslims doing nothing but turn the original culture (nearly gone now) into a piss tank.

I can tell you this - getting rid of those old laws and progressing this way MIGHT actually make me consider visiting that ****hole again one day. At least they are on the right track.
Forward.