[Niall]

As many have highlighted in this thread already, the college is well within its rights to do this. It's a security issue, and they should be complicit with the laws as is everyone else. Personally I don't understand how full-face veil is a practical or even comfortable piece of clothing to wear but whatever..

[Ninastar]

its sad that these women are forced to believe that wearing these things are good for them. I always have the greatest sympathy for them when I see them in town on a boiling hot day.

[Me. I Am Salman]

tbh they should have just gone to another college

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

If a man wanted to attend the college and wear a balaclava all day I'm sure there would be objections on security grounds, so why not with a face-veil? I have no problem with people wearing religious garb... but the full-face covering is unacceptable to me.

This woman believes that a ban on her face-veil is against her freedom. I don't agree. What's against a woman's freedom is to live in a Muslim country where girls are refused education, or even sometimes medical attention. Making an issue of the face-veil is just deflecting the attention from more serious issues.

I agree. I don't want to spout the "go back to your on country" nonsense but I mean lets be honest here, if any of us went to a strict Muslim country we would be expected to live by their rules and punished for breaking them, I don't see why it doesn't work the other way round as well.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ninastar

its sad that these women are forced to believe that wearing these things are good for them. I always have the greatest sympathy for them when I see them in town on a boiling hot day.

Me too, we were in Venice during the summer and I remember seeing a couple and the woman was covered head to toe in one of those veils in the hot sun and her husband was in a shorts and t-shirt, it was terrible to see.

[user104658]

The only reason I take issue with them saying it restricts their religious freedom is that it's apparently not even the case. Having the face covered is not a religious requirement of Islam... it's completely cultural, and has nothing to do with religion. In short; it's a choice. As is going to college. Therefore she has a decision to make... lose the veil and continue going to college, or keep wearing the veil and stop going to college. No one is forcing her by law to remove the veil - THAT would be a restriction on her freedom - she has a choice. That is freedom.

I mean ... I find my work shoes horribly uncomfortable, I much prefer to wear trainers, in fact I keep my shoes at work and travel to/from work in trainers and then change into my shoes there. That's how much I hate wearing them. Could I go to the papers and claim that my employers are restricting my freedom of footwear choice??

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The only reason I take issue with them saying it restricts their religious freedom is that it's apparently not even the case. Having the face covered is not a religious requirement of Islam... it's completely cultural, and has nothing to do with religion. In short; it's a choice. As is going to college. Therefore she has a decision to make... lose the veil and continue going to college, or keep wearing the veil and stop going to college. No one is forcing her by law to remove the veil - THAT would be a restriction on her freedom - she has a choice. That is freedom.

I mean ... I find my work shoes horribly uncomfortable, I much prefer to wear trainers, in fact I keep my shoes at work and travel to/from work in trainers and then change into my shoes there. That's how much I hate wearing them. Could I go to the papers and claim that my employers are restricting my freedom of footwear choice??

It's not a strict requirement exactly, but it does have a long history in Islam as being an additional act of virtue. I think I'm right in saying that Mohammed's wives all wore the veil, so a lot of women do wear it to feel they are closer to God

[Me. I Am Salman]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I agree. I don't want to spout the "go back to your on country" nonsense but I mean lets be honest here, if any of us went to a strict Muslim country we would be expected to live by their rules and punished for breaking them, I don't see why it doesn't work the other way round as well.

I never understand this argument. These countries are known to be backwards so why would you want to be like them? And I'm pretty sure this girl is British, what do those countries even have to do with her? The only justified argument for banning it is security reasons, which I agree with.

[Me. I Am Salman]

Originally Posted by Livia

If a man wanted to attend the college and wear a balaclava all day I'm sure there would be objections on security grounds, so why not with a face-veil?

This baclava crap confuses me too. You can't compare them because 99% of the time baclavas are worn for wrong reasons and 99% of the time a face-veil is not

Edit: balaclava* I can't believe I called it a baclava omg

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Salman!

I never understand this argument. These countries are known to be backwards so why would you want to be like them? And I'm pretty sure this girl is British, what do those countries even have to do with her? The only justified argument for banning it is security reasons, which I agree with.

And covering yourself from head to toe is also backwards and also a very sexist tradition imo

[Me. I Am Salman]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

And covering yourself from head to toe is also backwards and also a very sexist tradition imo

wtf why can't people accept not everyone feels wearing less clothes is liberating, plus as stated before it's their goddamn choice

also you ignored the rest of my post thanks for that

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Salman!

wtf why can't people accept not everyone feels wearing less clothes is liberating, plus as stated before it's their goddamn choice

also you ignored the rest of my post thanks for that

No worries

[Me. I Am Salman]

omg it ****in pisses me off so much how ignorant people are. it may be funny for you but it's seriously seriously aggravating that people are so judgemental going by what they see in the news. Islam has disadvantages for men too you know, and in many aspects empowers women

-In Islam, women are not required to go to mosque - they have the freedom to pray at home, unlike men who are obliged to go 5 times a day and believe me, prayers at mosques are far longer and it's tough. It's especially difficult for men in Ramadan because they're required to pray late at night after an entire day of fasting for two hours in hot cramped conditions, whereas women's prayer is much shorter and from the comfort of their home & with more flexible times.
-Pregnant women do not need to fast during Ramadan
-Islam hails mothers. they're given more value than fathers and Heaven is said to lie at their feet
-The burqa is not compulsory. Women who therefore wear it are clearly choosing to cover themselves. Banning it an infringement of women's rights and goes completely against what it claims to do
-Judging a woman who does not wear a headscarf is regarded a huge sin
-Islam teaches individuals to lower their gaze and not view people as sexual objects which empowers both sexes
-pretty sure the majority of Muslim woman will tell you they don't feel oppressed so how the **** can you speak for them

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Salman!

how the **** can you speak for them

I agree. I wasn't expecting to read a thread of people agreeing with the college when I read the title, it saddens me that the majority of the people here so far have done so.

[Niall]

Originally Posted by Salman!

This baclava crap confuses me too. You can't compare them because 99% of the time baclavas are worn for wrong reasons and 99% of the time a face-veil is not

The reasons don't even come into it though? The physical problem of the face veil is that it obscures identity and creates security issues. A balaclava (which creates just the same problem) would not be tolerated, so why make an exception for an item of clothing which is - as you've pointed out - optional for these women?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

And covering yourself from head to toe is also backwards and also a very sexist tradition imo

Nuns do

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Withano

I agree. I wasn't expecting to read a thread of people agreeing with the college when I read the title, it saddens me that the majority of the people here so far have done so.

Yup.

Originally Posted by Salman!

omg it ****in pisses me off so much how ignorant people are. it may be funny for you but it's seriously seriously aggravating that people are so judgemental going by what they see in the news. Islam has disadvantages for men too you know, and in many aspects empowers women

-In Islam, women are not required to go to mosque - they have the freedom to pray at home, unlike men who are obliged to go 5 times a day and believe me, prayers at mosques are far longer and it's tough. It's especially difficult for men in Ramadan because they're required to pray late at night after an entire day of fasting for two hours in hot cramped conditions, whereas women's prayer is much shorter and from the comfort of their home & with more flexible times.
-Pregnant women do not need to fast during Ramadan
-Islam hails mothers. they're given more value than fathers and Heaven is said to lie at their feet
-The burqa is not compulsory. Women who therefore wear it are clearly choosing to cover themselves. Banning it an infringement of women's rights and goes completely against what it claims to do
-Judging a woman who does not wear a headscarf is regarded a huge sin
-Islam teaches individuals to lower their gaze and not view people as sexual objects which empowers both sexes
-pretty sure the majority of Muslim woman will tell you they don't feel oppressed so how the **** can you speak for them

I agree that they should be allowed to wear what they want, and as long as it is solely their choice, and not compulsory (like some countries), then it really isn't anyone's business what an individual chooses to wear.

However, lets not pretend that Islam is great to/for women. Islam had a decent approach to womens rights considering the time period, but that's it. The age that Mohammed married and had sex with Aisha at, continues to this day to contribute to child abuse.

I do agree with your argument, but having women at home preparing the feasts, whilst being praised by Mohammed for praying privately in their quarters is no doubt just a happy accident.

[Me. I Am Salman]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

I agree that they should be allowed to wear what they want, and as long as it is solely their choice, and not compulsory (like some countries), then it really isn't anyone's business what an individual chooses to wear.

However, lets not pretend that Islam is great to/for women. Islam had a decent approach to womens rights considering the time period, but that's it. The age that Mohammed married and had sex with Aisha at, continues to this day to contribute to child abuse.

I do agree with your argument, but having women at home preparing the feasts, whilst being praised by Mohammed for praying privately in their quarters is no doubt just a happy accident.

well every society used to be like that, with their treatment of women and children being married (iirc there was a European king who married a girl under 10) so it's not exclusive to Islamic societies and that isn't what Islam is about. The marriage between Aisha and the Prophet SAW was only consummated when Aisha was deemed to be sexually mature and research by Islamic scholars suggest that she was actually 19 when they consummated, but whatever it was it's irrelevant to Islamic teachings and only happened because society was less developed

Originally Posted by Salman!

well every society used to be like that, with their treatment of women and children being married (iirc there was a European king who married a girl under 10) so it's not exclusive to Islamic societies and that isn't what Islam is about. The marriage between Aisha and the Prophet SAW was only consummated when Aisha was deemed to be sexually mature and research by Islamic scholars suggest that she was actually 19 when they consummated, but whatever it was it's irrelevant to Islamic teachings and only happened because society was less developed

I completely agree. Other societies did used to be like that. However, humanity progressed and challenged Christianity and Monarchies. Islam is still a relatively young religion, which hasn't reached that level yet.

Which sort of shows to me that it's humanity that progresses and changes, by challenging the dogmas we've been fed, and not the dogmas that help us progress by following them.

I am completely on your side though when it comes to this issue though.

[DanaC]

It's a pretty typical thing really. Like the West promoting democracy in some dictatorship and then getting bent out of shape when they democratically elect someone we don't approve of and who seems to us to be the antithesis of democracy.

We promote greater choice, equality and autonomy for women whose native (or ancestral) culture seems designed to remove it and then get bent out of shape when some of them choose to embrace the culture we disapprove of and which seems the antithesis of choice, equality and autonomy.

[Johnnyuk123]

If this college rule gets overturned then what next? Naturist turning up starkers? Co's if they did the whole country would kick off about that but naturists too should also be allowed to express the exact same freedom as this girl is demaning by dressing or undressing how they see fit in public just like this muslim girl has, which after all is exactly the same kind of freedom that people want.

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

If this college rule gets overturned then what next? Naturist turning up starkers? Co's if they did the whole country would kick off about that but naturists too should also be allowed to express the exact same freedom as this girl is demaning by dressing or undressing how they see fit in public just like this muslim girl has, which after all is exactly the same kind of freedom that people want.

Well naturalists would have to travel to school to begin with, and they are probably breaking laws of public decency if they traveled naked on buses.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

Well naturalists would have to travel to school to begin with, and they are probably breaking laws of public decency if they traveled naked on buses.

And if the naturists start claiming that it's a religion; that they believe covering up and part of their body (God's creation?) is an insult to Him and His work? What then? Surely, by the same rules of religious freedom that apply to the veil, it would have to be legalized... and accepted in establishments such as colleges.

You can't start picking and choosing, deeming one religion more legitimate than another... the rules have to be the same across the board. So, either it's OK for a college to disallow the veil, OR all religious freedoms are valid, and so they'd have to allow these new Naturochristians (that I have just invented AND named, awesome) to exercise their right to religious freedom by attending college buck naked.

[lostalex]

There should be one rule for everyone, no exceptions. This school is a secular environment, if you are THAT religious then you should be in a religious school that has different rules that can accomodate your religious needs.