[Christmas Dynasnow]

The trial took place at the Crown Court at Caernarfon in April 2012 before Judge Merfyn Hughes QC and a jury. Evans and McDonald admitted to having sex with the woman, but both denied raping her.[13] Counsel for the prosecution, John Philpotts, stated that the victim, a 19-year-old waitress, was too intoxicated to have consented.[14][15] The court heard that the victim had woken up naked and confused in a double bed with her clothes on the floor and no memory of the incident.[16] Samples taken from the victim at the time showed no alcohol, although the Crown claimed this was due to "elimination".[17] The samples showed traces of cocaine and cannabis, although she denied taking the drugs on the night of the incident.[18] She had drunk two glasses of wine, four double vodkas with lemonade, and a shot of sambuca.[18] As a result, she told police she "felt tipsy but not out of control".[19] The victim claimed to have almost no memory of what happened between leaving a dancing session with friends and waking up the following morning, leading her to believe that her drink had been spiked.[18] The defence stated both men had sex with the woman separately and with her consent, while the prosecution submitted that the pair "targeted" her for sex after she "literally stumbled across their path" and demonstrated herself to be too intoxicated to consent. Two friends of the men were also alleged to have watched and attempted to record the act through a window


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Evans_and_McDonald

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The trial took place at the Crown Court at Caernarfon in April 2012 before Judge Merfyn Hughes QC and a jury. Evans and McDonald admitted to having sex with the woman, but both denied raping her.[13] Counsel for the prosecution, John Philpotts, stated that the victim, a 19-year-old waitress, was too intoxicated to have consented.[14][15] The court heard that the victim had woken up naked and confused in a double bed with her clothes on the floor and no memory of the incident.[16] Samples taken from the victim at the time showed no alcohol, although the Crown claimed this was due to "elimination".[17] The samples showed traces of cocaine and cannabis, although she denied taking the drugs on the night of the incident.[18] She had drunk two glasses of wine, four double vodkas with lemonade, and a shot of sambuca.[18] As a result, she told police she "felt tipsy but not out of control".[19] The victim claimed to have almost no memory of what happened between leaving a dancing session with friends and waking up the following morning, leading her to believe that her drink had been spiked.[18] The defence stated both men had sex with the woman separately and with her consent, while the prosecution submitted that the pair "targeted" her for sex after she "literally stumbled across their path" and demonstrated herself to be too intoxicated to consent. Two friends of the men were also alleged to have watched and attempted to record the act through a window


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Evans_and_McDonald

By that account it does sound like she was targeted by the men. One of them brought her back to a hotel room, called his friend over to have sex with her and presumably more than just that friend was called if two more of them were watching through a window and recording it....

[Christmas Dynasnow]

So are we saying that men should not bang drunk women?

or at what stage do you think, hang on she is too pissed and wont remember this

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

So are we saying that men should not bang drunk women?

or at what stage do you think, hang on she is too pissed and wont remember this

Well, from the sounds of that article you posted regarding this case, the guy that she'd actually met while out wasn't convicted of rape at all. That case doesn't sound like a typical drunk girl gets drunk and regrets sex the next morning type either

[Livia]

The vast majority of men know that to rape a woman in any circumstances is wrong. But rape has been going on since humans have been populating the earth, and you're not going to stop it by saying that a woman shouldn't have to take responsibility for herself. It's not like I'm saying men should be given carte blanche to rape a woman, but I've seen young women both on TV and in reality, pissed, sitting on the kerb, skirt up round their waist, totally insensible to anything that's going on around her. What a state to get into... She wouldn't know whether she was giving her consent or not... until the next morning when she's in charge of her own mind again. In my opinion, if you're drunk beyond knowing what you're doing, then you are deliberately putting yourself at risk. That's not to say a man should be able to rape you... just that, if he says you gave consent, how do you know he's wrong? If a sober woman doesn't give consent... that's a whole different story.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Livia

The vast majority of men know that to rape a woman in any circumstances is wrong. But rape has been going on since humans have been populating the earth, and you're not going to stop it by saying that a woman shouldn't have to take responsibility for herself. It's not like I'm saying men should be given carte blanche to rape a woman, but I've seen young women both on TV and in reality, pissed, sitting on the kerb, skirt up round their waist, totally insensible to anything that's going on around her. What a state to get into... She wouldn't know whether she was giving her consent or not... until the next morning when she's in charge of her own mind again. In my opinion, if you're drunk beyond knowing what you're doing, then you are deliberately putting yourself at risk. That's not to say a man should be able to rape you... just that, if he says you gave consent, how do you know he's wrong? If a sober woman doesn't give consent... that's a whole different story.

We're talking about people who were actually raped though, just because a person is drunk doesn't necessarily mean they're going to forget everything that happened the night before.

In the specific case that Judy commented on yes the girl said she can't remember what happened but it sounds like she may have been drugged, and the court must have thought so too considering they jailed this footballer for 5 years after hearing the evidence

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

We're talking about people who were actually raped though, just because a person is drunk doesn't necessarily mean they're going to forget everything that happened the night before.

In the specific case that Judy commented on yes the girl said she can't remember what happened but it sounds like she may have been drugged, and the court must have thought so too considering they jailed this footballer for 5 years after hearing the evidence

I'm very sorry she was raped, I'm very sorry anyone is raped, it's a truly horrific thing to happen. So surely the message should be, take responsibility for your own safety and don't get so drunk you can't take care of yourself.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm very sorry she was raped, I'm very sorry anyone is raped, it's a truly horrific thing to happen. So surely the message should be, take responsibility for your own safety and don't get so drunk you can't take care of yourself.

What message? That if you're drunk when you get raped the guy who raped you shouldn't lose his job? cos that's what Judy was saying...

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

What message? That if you're drunk when you get raped the guy who raped you shouldn't lose his job? cos that's what Judy was saying...

What Judy is saying is what she's saying. What I'm saying is, don't get so drunk you might get raped. There are bad people out there so take some responsibility.

[Ramsay]

Wrecks that my tits that people have mysteriously forgotten that Mike Tyson was convicted of raping a girl back in 92 but now everyone loves him
If i was at player at Sheffield Utd i know i wouldn't want a rapist in the same dressing room as me. absolute muck.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Ramsay

Wrecks that my tits that people have mysteriously forgotten that Mike Tyson was convicted of raping a girl back in 92 but now everyone loves him
If i was at player at Sheffield Utd i know i wouldn't want a rapist in the same dressing room as me. absolute muck.

Mike Tyson was convicted of raping Desiree Washington in 1992 after she willingly accompanied him back to his hotel room at 3am. I'm not sure what she imagines she was going back there to do at that time. She also had a history of rape accusations, and she made a packet from the case, which I'm sure salved her hurt somewhat.

[Bluerang1]

Livia has a valid point. Is all drunk sex, that is both parties are drunk, considered rape because neither, or the female which is always the case, was intoxicated so couldn't give consent? This is a big issue here at my college but I mean if you willingly go out to get blackout drunk you should know that there will be consequences. It's annoyed me when someone said "don't leave your drunk friends to wander about by themselves". Friends are not other friends keepers. Adults should be able to take care of themselves without needing others to clean up their messes.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Bluerang1

Livia has a valid point. Is all drunk sex, that is both parties are drunk, considered rape because neither, or the female which is always the case, was intoxicated so couldn't give consent? This is a big issue here at my college but I mean if you willingly go out to get blackout drunk you should know that there will be consequences. It's annoyed me when someone said "don't leave your drunk friends to wander about by themselves". Friends are not other friends keepers. Adults should be able to take care of themselves without needing others to clean up their messes.

there is a big difference between 2 people having drinks together, having a good time and capping off the evening with a shag, VS 4 drunk men finding a drunk woman stumbling around on the street that they've never met and bringing her home to have their way with her.

a huuuuge difference. imho.

[Bluerang1]

Originally Posted by lostalex

there is a big difference between 2 people having drinks together, having a good time and capping off the evening with a shag, VS 4 drunk men finding a drunk woman stumbling around on the street that they've never met and bringing her home to have their way with her.

Well at my school drunk girls seem to call rape after nights with one guy so that's where my perspective is from. And there's no difference whether it's one or two. If a girl doesn't want to have sex but is too drunk to think for herself, and so is some random guy she meets at a bar, how is he at fault if she calls rape the next morning? They were out of their minds.

This is why I don't drink, I don't want to not be in control of myself.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Bluerang1

Well at my school drunk girls seem to call rape after nights with one guy so that's where my perspective is from. And there's no difference whether it's one or two. If a girl doesn't want to have sex but is too drunk to think for herself, and so is some random guy she meets at a bar, how is he at fault if she calls rape the next morning? They were out of their minds.

This is why I don't drink, I don't want to not be in control of myself.

And these girls who "call rape" after a night out does the guy they accuse of rape get convicted? and how do you know that they weren't raped?

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Bluerang1

Well at my school drunk girls seem to call rape after nights with one guy so that's where my perspective is from. And there's no difference whether it's one or two. If a girl doesn't want to have sex but is too drunk to think for herself, and so is some random guy she meets at a bar, how is he at fault if she calls rape the next morning? They were out of their minds.

This is why I don't drink, I don't want to not be in control of myself.

If he was as drunk as you are implying in this hypothetical situation, he wouldn't even be able to get it up, it's called Whisky Dick. You are making it sound like there aren't tons of guys that specifically PREY upon drunk women, even joke about it with their mates. you sound very naive.

[Bluerang1]

Originally Posted by lostalex

If he was as drunk as you are implying in this hypothetical situation, he wouldn't even be able to get it up, it's called Whisky Dick. You are making it sound like there aren't tons of guys that specifically PREY upon drunk women, even joke about it with their mates. you sound very naive.

And you seem to always make excuses in favor of the girls.

[Amy Jade]

Sounds to me like his friend had sex with her and she was so drunk she had passed out and the friend sent the dirty rapist a text to come get some.

Rape doesn't have to be a violent thing, would Judy or anyone else defending him still defend him if it was their daughter in the drunk girls position? doubt it.

[Livia]

Having just read Judy Finnigan's words, I think the whole bloody thing has been blown out of proportion.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Livia

Having just read Judy Finnigan's words, I think the whole bloody thing has been blown out of proportion.

Yes but Every Paper attacked her
as it was her first time on the new Revamped
Loose Women

[Livia]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes but Every Paper attacked her
as it was her first time on the new Revamped
Loose Women

Slow news day.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Livia

Having just read Judy Finnigan's words, I think the whole bloody thing has been blown out of proportion.

I disagree completely

[Bluerang1]

Oh that Judy! She's so old now.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Bluerang1

Oh that Judy! She's so old now.

The years haven't been kind to her, have they.

[lostalex]

I think livia is just saying that everyone should be aware of dangerous circumstances. I think both men and women need to be more conscious of their actions, not just women. The same way we all lock our doors at night, but that doesn't mean that anyone deserves to get robbed if they forget one night.

A thief is still a thief even if you don't lock the doors, and a rapist is still a rapist even if you had a few drinks.