[T*]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

We're still adding to the 1,600,000+ innocent Iraqis we've killed in the last 10 years though.

Does that really matter if we're killing people who will continue to kill innocent people unless we stop them?

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Tom!

Does that really matter if we're killing people who will continue to kill innocent people unless we stop them?

Yes, it matters.

Completely agree that there is no point trying to be open minded with IS but at the same time we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the Iraq invasion was a massive mistake and that IS are to some extent a product of western foreign policy failure in the region

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Yes, it matters.

Completely agree that there is no point trying to be open minded with IS but at the same time we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the Iraq invasion was a massive mistake and that IS are to some extent a product of western foreign policy failure in the region

So the rest of the world, who have the means, should not intervene to protect the ordinary people of a country such as Iraq and just let the home grown Iraqi dictators and bully boys terrorise and murder their own. Wouldn't all the bully boys out there just love that. We did not create this mess, the terrorists did.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by sassysocks

So the rest of the world, who have the means, should not intervene to protect the ordinary people of a country such as Iraq and just let the home grown Iraqi dictators and bully boys terrorise and murder their own. Wouldn't all the bully boys out there just love that. We did not create this mess, the terrorists did.

So the Iraq war wasn't a mistake? It was a necessary humanitarian intervention with the purest of motives? Sad as it may be there are dozens of countries with dictatorial systems - some of them are our great allies. 'Nations have no permanent friends or enemies, only permanent interests' - look at the way that Gaddafi was alternatively an enemy, then a friend, then an enemy again. Same story with a lot of world leaders. And sad as it may also be a lot of the time these dictators are the only things keeping a lid on melting pots of religious and political tensions just waiting to boil over. Toppling Saddam opened up a power vacuum in Iraq which IS are now filling. Only post invasion did Iraq become such a haven for terrorists. It's the same story in Syria, suddenly we're not so desperate to see Assad removed because we have a common enemy. We used to be expected to cheerlead the death of Syrian soldiers who it was decided were just Assad's dogs massacring his people, not so much anymore.

[lostalex]

i watched ender's game last night. We need an Ender to wipe these ****ers out once and for all.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by lostalex

i watched ender's game last night. We need an Ender to wipe these ****ers out once and for all.

I watched that last night too, thought if was crap

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I watched that last night too, thought if was crap

well it was a crap movie, and i totally predicted the ending half way through. but still... I support use of drones to wipe out these evil ****ers. I don't support the use of kids and manipulating them with video games though...

I meant a willing Ender.

[Kazanne]

He can't be that badly injured as he has beheaded someone today hasn't he?

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

He can't be that badly injured as he has beheaded someone today hasn't he?

Yeah been a couple of videos released today of an American being beheaded as well as him leading a mass beheading of Syrian soldiers, so either they were filmed beforehand or as you say he wasn't that badly injured after all

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

He can't be that badly injured as he has beheaded someone today hasn't he?

Kaz thats a recording Not Live
made weeks back

[Livia]

I'm not sure we can excuse ISIL's reign of terror because of Iraq, a war we - the public - were led into on a lie despite massive public disapproval. ISIL have overstepped anything that could have led to any kind of understanding. They can't be negotiated with, they can't be reasoned with and they should be eradicated.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm not sure we can excuse ISIL's reign of terror because of Iraq, a war we - the public - were led into on a lie despite massive public disapproval. ISIL have overstepped anything that could have led to any kind of understanding. They can't be negotiated with, they can't be reasoned with and they should be eradicated.

There's a big difference between excusing and explaining though, it's not as though things happen in a vacuum with no context

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

There's a big difference between excusing and explaining though, it's not as though things happen in a vacuum with no context

With respect MTVN - because I always do respect your point of view - I'm tired of people trying to explain why this is happening, in effect excusing ISIL and making it all about what the West has done as if they have a right to carry out these act in retaliation. There is no excuse for what they ISIL do and there is no explanation for it apart from this: ISIL are a bunch of murdering terrorists who will do what they do because they hate anyone who isn't with them. Killing children in front of their parents, making people watch as their wives and daughters are raped and then murdered, all the terrible, sickening things I've heard about ISIL since it all began makes me wonder how anyone can, with a straight face, say there is any kind of explanation for what they're doing.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Livia

With respect MTVN - because I always do respect your point of view - I'm tired of people trying to explain why this is happening, in effect excusing ISIL and making it all about what the West has done as if they have a right to carry out these act in retaliation. There is no excuse for what they ISIL do and there is no explanation for it apart from this: ISIL are a bunch of murdering terrorists who will do what they do because they hate anyone who isn't with them. Killing children in front of their parents, making people watch as their wives and daughters are raped and then murdered, all the terrible, sickening things I've heard about ISIL since it all began makes me wonder how anyone can, with a straight face, say there is any kind of explanation for what they're doing.

I wasn't trying to explain their actions though, I'm talking about explaining their rise; why they have managed to recruit so many followers and why opposition forces and Middle Eastern governments have been so impotent to stop them. I'm not going to disagree with your description of IS - their brand of extremism is more murderous than anything we've seen in the last few decades - but in order to counter their threat we do need to contextualise it imo. It's not about explaining what they've done necessarily, it's about explaining why they have been able to carry out their atrocities and swallow up so much territory.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I wasn't trying to explain their actions though, I'm talking about explaining their rise; why they have managed to recruit so many followers and why opposition forces and Middle Eastern governments have been so impotent to stop them. I'm not going to disagree with your description of IS - their brand of extremism is more murderous than anything we've seen in the last few decades - but in order to counter their threat we do need to contextualise it imo. It's not about explaining what they've done necessarily, it's about explaining why they have been able to carry out their atrocities and swallow up so much territory.

Went off half cocked there, didn't I. Sorry MTVN, I got the wrong end of the stick.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm not sure we can excuse ISIL's reign of terror because of Iraq, a war we - the public - were led into on a lie despite massive public disapproval. ISIL have overstepped anything that could have led to any kind of understanding. They can't be negotiated with, they can't be reasoned with and they should be eradicated.

[GypsyGoth]

With a name like Jihadi John, it's little wonder that he's fighting on the same side as the terrorists.

[Mitchell]

Hope he dies a slow and painful death.