[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

That's what a lot of people think about unpaid internships, that's it's just for rich kids. Fact is that they're done by people with ambition and a will to work in a certain area. I know people who've done unpaid internships and held down a couple of part time jobs to pay the bills. Credit to them... if you need experience there's only one way to get it, and sitting on your backside moaning about other people being privileged isn't the way to go.

It's not just my opinion you understand.

'Taking an unpaid internship can cost an individual £926 a month in London or £804 in Manchester, suggests research for an education charity.

The Sutton Trust says the cost of working for nothing rules out all but the wealthy and wants most interns to be paid at least minimum wage.

A third (31%) of graduate interns are unpaid, according to the charity's analysis of official data.

The CBI warned that banning unpaid internships could reduce opportunities.

The report uses government figures to suggest that some 22,000 interns may be working for nothing.

It analyses the costs of living in London and Manchester for interns on sixth-month work placements.

Taking into account rental for a room in a shared property, household bills, council tax, food and miscellaneous spending on items such as broadband, cleaning products and clothing, a Londoner would pay, £5,556 for the period and a Mancunian £4,827, amounting to £926 and £804 each month.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-29996607

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

That's what a lot of people think about unpaid internships, that's it's just for rich kids. Fact is that they're done by people with ambition and a will to work in a certain area. I know people who've done unpaid internships and held down a couple of part time jobs to pay the bills. Credit to them... if you need experience there's only one way to get it, and sitting on your backside moaning about other people being privileged isn't the way to go.

My wife works 60+ hours per week on minimum wage. I have worked all my life (sometimes for as little as £10 per day in real terms) and we have genuinely struggled at times - adverse times - bringing up three children. We made sacrifices; very real sacrifices; like only having one real holiday in 21 years, and even selling our home and possessions when times went really bad (the property crash) but the results of all this is evident every time I see what brilliant decent, educated, hard-working kids we have.

One of my sons has held part time jobs all the way through school from being 12 and has continued to do so through University where he has incurred loans of £30,000 in gaining his Law degree. The other is the same and took a below minimum wage B.S. job which first entailed him carrying out the most mind-numbingly menial drudgery, but he is now on £25,000 + company car with another firm - solely because of the experience he gained with the other firm.

I know everyone is different, but sometimes people seem comparatively 'well off' when the truth is - as you say - that they worked damned hard, made great sacrifices, and budgeted and planned.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

My wife works 60+ hours per week on minimum wage. I have worked all my life (sometimes for as little as £10 per day in real terms) and we have genuinely struggled at times - adverse times - bringing up three children. We made sacrifices; very real sacrifices; like only having one real holiday in 21 years, and even selling our home and possessions when times went really bad (the property crash) but the results of all this is evident every time I see what brilliant decent, educated, hard-working kids we have.

One of my sons has held part time jobs all the way through school from being 12 and has continued to do so through University where he has incurred loans of £30,000 in gaining his Law degree. The other is the same and took a below minimum wage B.S. job which first entailed him carrying out the most mind-numbingly menial drudgery, but he is now on £25,000 + company car with another firm - solely because of the experience he gained with the other firm.

I know everyone is different, but sometimes people seem comparatively 'well off' when the truth is - as you say - that they worked damned hard, made great sacrifices, and budgeted and planned.

Kirk - I genuinely don't mean this to be offensive to your age - but I do think it's important to realise that the world today for young people trying to make it is entirely different to the world as it was even just a few decades ago. My wife's parents (who are in their 40's) have tried to sympathise with us at times when we have been struggling for cash in the past, as they "struggled" too, but the differences really are enormous. Her dad talks of how he worked many hours, and of jumping from job to job frequently. Which is all well and good but - put simply - in most medium-sized-or-smaller towns today working huge numbers of hours is unrealistic (there are not the hours available for everyone) and jumping straight from job to job is very rare, too (there are not the jobs available, either). They also bought their first home in their 20's (in the 1980s) for £12,000. Taking inflation into account that's a current price of £30,000. Now, we can't realistically buy a two bedroomed property in the area we live in for much under £100,000.

Also, I've mentioned my rental costs to older people at work (most of whom snapped up council houses for peanuts a few decades ago) - £525 per month for a two-bedroom semi detached house - and their jaws have almost hit the floor. We're looking to up-size to three bedrooms and there's nothing in the area for under £600pcm. Getting a first-time-buyer mortgage for anything more than a small flat is almost impossible, even though the outgoings on a mortgage for a similar house would probably be less than £600 a month. Lenders are just unwilling to commit.

Gas prices have soared, electricity prices have soared, public transport is utterly extortionate. If you have more than one person to transport, it's ALWAYS cheaper to drive, which is utterly stupid. And that includes factoring in road tax / car upkeep / insurance. And yet - running a car costs a lot more than it used to, as well.


These aren't excuses or designed to play down the achievements or the hard work of previous generations. I'm just saying that it's impossible to directly compare the problems faced by young people and young working families today to how things have been in the past. If I was the age I am now 30 years ago and in a comparable financial position to where I am right now... I would almost certainly have owned my own home for several years, and I would probably be seriously considering self-employment. Today, both of those are unrealistic for at least another 5+ years, even though our financial position is (I would guess) a fair bit better than a lot of parents in their 20's with two young children. In just over 5 years, I'll be 35. 30+ years ago that was really old for a first-time buyer. Today? I only personally know 3 people my age who own their own home. It's a very different world.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Kirk - I genuinely don't mean this to be offensive to your age - but I do think it's important to realise that the world today for young people trying to make it is entirely different to the world as it was even just a few decades ago. My wife's parents (who are in their 40's) have tried to sympathise with us at times when we have been struggling for cash in the past, as they "struggled" too, but the differences really are enormous. Her dad talks of how he worked many hours, and of jumping from job to job frequently. Which is all well and good but - put simply - in most medium-sized-or-smaller towns today working huge numbers of hours is unrealistic (there are not the hours available for everyone) and jumping straight from job to job is very rare, too (there are not the jobs available, either). They also bought their first home in their 20's (in the 1980s) for £12,000. Taking inflation into account that's a current price of £30,000. Now, we can't realistically buy a two bedroomed property in the area we live in for much under £100,000.

Also, I've mentioned my rental costs to older people at work (most of whom snapped up council houses for peanuts a few decades ago) - £525 per month for a two-bedroom semi detached house - and their jaws have almost hit the floor. We're looking to up-size to three bedrooms and there's nothing in the area for under £600pcm. Getting a first-time-buyer mortgage for anything more than a small flat is almost impossible, even though the outgoings on a mortgage for a similar house would probably be less than £600 a month. Lenders are just unwilling to commit.

Gas prices have soared, electricity prices have soared, public transport is utterly extortionate. If you have more than one person to transport, it's ALWAYS cheaper to drive, which is utterly stupid. And that includes factoring in road tax / car upkeep / insurance. And yet - running a car costs a lot more than it used to, as well.


These aren't excuses or designed to play down the achievements or the hard work of previous generations. I'm just saying that it's impossible to directly compare the problems faced by young people and young working families today to how things have been in the past. If I was the age I am now 30 years ago and in a comparable financial position to where I am right now... I would almost certainly have owned my own home for several years, and I would probably be seriously considering self-employment. Today, both of those are unrealistic for at least another 5+ years, even though our financial position is (I would guess) a fair bit better than a lot of parents in their 20's with two young children. In just over 5 years, I'll be 35. 30+ years ago that was really old for a first-time buyer. Today? I only personally know 3 people my age who own their own home. It's a very different world.

I wasn't doing T.S. I was extending Livia's point that sometimes not all people who are regarded as 'well off' really are, and that sometimes even people who are (and it's all relative) have got their by forgoing a lot of the luxuries which some others indulge in.

I know from having kids just how hard it is to get jobs and buy a property and the 'Help to Buy Scheme' is only really benefiting truly wealthy parent's kids because of the caveats attached which actually preclude most working class kids from qualifying.

Anyway, I think you've misunderstood me T.S.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Also, I've mentioned my rental costs to older people at work (most of whom snapped up council houses for peanuts a few decades ago) - £525 per month for a two-bedroom semi detached house - and their jaws have almost hit the floor. We're looking to up-size to three bedrooms and there's nothing in the area for under £600pcm. Getting a first-time-buyer mortgage for anything more than a small flat is almost impossible, even though the outgoings on a mortgage for a similar house would probably be less than £600 a month. Lenders are just unwilling to commit.

.

I agree with everything you have said TS but wanted to add to the bit I’ve quoted.

If you live in many parts of London, you will only get a studio or flat share for that sort of money and if you wanted to buy, 100k would get you a 1 bed flat in a high rise in a really ****ty end of London.

My parent’s first 3 bed house in a fairly nice area of west London cost them 17k. That same house would now sell for around 500k. Half a million for a frigging terrace that is little more than a starter home!!

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by waterhog

get yourself a job ( david C aka mr credibility) 17.02.15

don't think this is a George (osbourne)
this is the organ grinder
Dave you are so fake its forge
its a ultimate low act not from your minder.
our job's are not on your pile
to you this is no shame
unlike a MP's job and shiny white smile
we are not all privileged to be over paid and still claim.
3 years we are targeting
the importance i will argue
like the "con party" and dress up and clever marketing
when you look its a empty menu.
no consideration about travel
or the job suitability
none of us have a second home and drive way gravel
or protection from a criminal corrupt facility. (Parliament)
why don't you target the fit and healthy
that think work is vile
instead of going for the young and least wealthy
i will tip you off, they will be watching Jeremy Vile.
the "welfare" is not a luxury budget
it is a pure squeeze
MP's spend a weeks unemployment on breakfast so begrudge it
this policy should bring all down to the knees.
sorry David Cameron to slam
but your government is a disgrace
now i present you with a "Wham"
take with you all your cronies and get out of this place.

( on the news i see this government is targeting the 18 to 21 age group and wants to stop them getting benefits. not sure about anyone else but my experience of living on benefits was hardship. so to say they are getting free money is ridiculous. yes they should be looking for work and applying and going to interviews but all this cost money and with no help i think this policy is wrong. or am i being to soft and this is exactly what needs to happen. i would take this to Davids house but i have no bus fare and as for George - well i am not looking for a wham so i am staying clear. )

I agree and it's harder to find work when you have no experience.

[DemolitionRed]

I haven’t read a great deal about this new/old apprenticeship scheme or how its going to work but I won’t hold my breath because the conservative government campaign are desperate to pull in votes from the poor and will stoop to any false promise to get that vote.

Before anyone votes we should all keep in mind that the conservative government does not give the poor people of Britain a voice and whilst huge sums of money are being shovelled into the bank accounts of the wealthy, hardworking British people on low incomes are not being represented.

I was recently reading an article that claimed 1 in 3 children in the UK are being raised in poverty. Their parents may be doing their best, but have to deal with the constant stress of lacking enough money to get by, either working in a monotonous low paid job or having no job to go to. Its these parents who will have to subsidize their 18 to 21 year old children when they can’t get work or benefits.

Misery, frustration and hopelessness comes to mind.

[waterhog]

just in from work and it is a pleasure to read all the comments on this thread. i think every point is valid and i can see nearly all opinions and i am glad the majority feel this government are going about things the wrong way.

i just hope i have not played into there hands in them kicking up a fuss about this to distract us from other stuff they are doing.

to prevent me falling in this trap everything a conservative says i reverse it to get my view.

thanks again everyone for your storys and views on this.

[the truth]

as much as I think the tories are pretty much obsessed with protecting the elite, I still think theyre doing a better job than the stinking spin doctors of tony bliars disgusting sub human perversion of socialism

[Kizzy]

[Vicky.]

Fine, if the jobs are there. It is a big issue the level of youth unemployment, no doubt about it, BUT again...taking away their only form of income is not going to help anything, not everyone has parents who can afford or are willing to keep them. Apprenticeships are great, if you are still living at home and have no responsibilities...but the wages are nowhere near enough if for some reason you can't do that. I would have been ****ed when I left school without the benefits system (and my grandma) as my mum kicked me out and my dad had just remarried this complete bitch who hates me...and I was literally on the street with nothing. Luckily I was able to claim something called hardship benefit...and my grandma supported me also, but she couldn't have afforded to keep me completely. I managed to find work in a taxi local office, £2.50 per hour cash in hand as the boss didn't want to pay NI and such but it was better than being on the dole. That jobs also lead to my criminal conviction for 'obtaining money by deception' funnily enough (long story but basically, boss who was vile, tried it on with me, then sacked me when I told him to piss off and said I wasnt getting my wages that were owed to me and that I couldn't prove he owed anything as the job wasn't legit, so I stole one of his presigned cheques and cashed it. Only for what was owed to me though...)

So anyway..I seem to have gone a bit offtopic..its all well and good if the positions are there for them and circumstances allow. But I do think a days work should equal a days pay tbh. I understand apprenticeships being training so not quite a job, and for stuff like plumbing and such I have no problem with the 'wage' being low. But the apprenticeships these days are literally just 'apprentice cleaner' 'apprentice sandwich artist' (aka, working in subway) and the employers just stick the word apprentice infront to get away with paying crap.

What seems the norm to some people is not for others. I think MPs would do well to remember that from time to time.

[Kizzy]

That was a great example of the people I think will be the victims in this reform vicky, those who rely on nobody but themselves and don't have the luxury of a supportive family.
I totally agree with you about modern apprenticeships, ' sandwich artist'

[Vicky.]

Sounds like a pisstake but its not unfortunately

http://www.notgoingtouni.co.uk/oppor...h-artist-26446

All the jobs in the subways within about 10 miles of here were apprentice jobs...yeah apparently you do get some form of qualification for it.but seriously...it takes the piss. You do not need a qualification to make a sandwich, nor should a chain that makes so much cash use things like this to get out of paying a proper wage.

Also these sandwich artists still don't seem to know what 'NO CHEESE' means

[Vicky.]

Actually that link shows how much employers take the piss with apprenticeships...apprentice kitchen assistant, coffee shop apprentice, apprentice waiter. Etc.

[Kizzy]

disgusting isn't it? Those are the sort of jobs you did at 14-15 on a weekend, walk in and say got any jobs? ... 10 mins later you were working. :/