[Ashley.]

Originally Posted by Shaun

I think white gay males can probably be the most prejudiced group around. The sheer volume of people who're so openly discriminative under the name of kinks or types is a little bit alarming, and the whole "no fems" thing you see so often just irks me, even if I can understand why it'd play into gender identities we carry in our heads.

A lot of it is internalised homophobia I think - a kind of bargaining that gays who identify themselves as "masculine" will use on themselves as if to say "Yeah I'm gay... but look, guys, I'm not that gay" *points at picture of Louie Spence* And it's hard to see that and not think it as homophobic. And sexist, really, as though effeminacy is beneath them or weak. Jords put it well. I just think the community (I'm not saying LGBT community because I can't speak for the L or T, as much as the G likes to) compartmentalises itself too much and plays off against each other as if they're commodities in a store rather than a group. But then, wanting all gay people to share the same beliefs is obviously naive.

I'm also still conflicted about using the word fag colloquially. That's definitely a context issue rather than an out-and-out social one though.

Very well put, Shaun!

Well, the guy that I'm talking about posted a picture of a load of people at gay pride in OTT costumes with the caption "I hope all us fags and queers don't end up like this", along with some other stuff that he's posted. It's just quite uncomfortable to read, really!

[Jords]

Originally Posted by lostalex

What a load of bull.

The only people i see typing "no fems" are Fem guys!! they are the ones that only want masculine guys and bitch about other feminine guys not being attractive.

And do you honestly think that straight men don't prefer feminine women over masculine women? so why is it okay for straight men to want feminine women, but it's not okay for gay men to want masculine men?

Gay men preferring masculine men is not homophobic in any sense of the word. because being feminine has NOTHING to do with being gay. so how is that homophobic?

And you bringing race into it, i'm not even gonna bother with that nonsense. You make no points at all that make any sense. i can't even tell you the number of times i;ve heard straight blacks say they only want to marry another black person, or a straight jewish person say they would only marry another jew. but for a white gay man to want to marry another white man, he's racist? kiss my hairy white ass.

Redundant post after that over-generalised and very untrue statement. Shall I show you my Grindr? Sorry but there is a strong presence of "not after fem" which can be purely preference but Ive also come to associate it with the fear of greater rejection.

Im commenting purely for the social psychology side of things.

My own preference is the better mix of both masc and fem characteristics and traits.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Jords

Redundant post after that over-generalised and very untrue statement. Shall I show you my Grindr? Sorry but there is a strong presence of "not after fem" which can be purely preference but Ive also come to associate it with the fear of greater rejection.

Im commenting purely for the social psychology side of things.

My own preference is the better mix of both masc and fem characteristics and traits.

and have you met those guys that say "no fems" trust me, when you meet them, they are fem themselves, even if they have a pic that makes themselves look like masculine jocks. The minute they open their mouthes they sound like richard simmons.

I've met them. any guy that has "no fems" in their profile, i have learned that they are the most fem guys on the planet, no matter how many muscles they have.

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by _LucasMichael_

Tbh I think I have tendencies of it.

You give me tendencies of it

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Ashley.

Very well put, Shaun!

Well, the guy that I'm talking about posted a picture of a load of people at gay pride in OTT costumes with the caption "I hope all us fags and queers don't end up like this", along with some other stuff that he's posted. It's just quite uncomfortable to read, really!

NO, it's not well put at all, it's totally ignorant, and it's clear that Shaun has not actually met many guys from grindr. and he's clearly not met many of the guys that claim that they are Masc4masc... it's a lie.

It's only fem guys that hate on other fem guys.

[lostalex]

and again, i need to ask the question, what does not being attracted to feminine guys have to do with being homophobic? Nothing. gay men are not feminine in general, so how is it homophobic to not be attracted to feminine guys?

Is it HETEROPHOBIC for a straight man to not be attracted to masculine women?

please answer that question.

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by lostalex

it's totally ignorant, and it's clear that Shaun has not actually met many guys from grindr.

Omg this is going in my sig

[Smithy]

Heterophobia isn't a thing alex

[Mystic Mock]

Of course they can be, just look at Craig Coates in BB6 to see that.

I also controversially believe that you can be racist towards your own skin colour as well.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Smithy

Heterophobia isn't a thing alex

Then neither is homophobia by gay men.

Stop having double standards and put some actual THOUGHT into what you say.

If it's okay for Hetero men to prefer feminine women, then it's fine for gay men to prefer masculine men.

being gay has nothing to do with feminity. only homophobes think that gay men are feminine.

are there some masculine straight women? yes, and most straight men aren't attracted to them

are there some feminine gay men? yes, and most gay men aren't attracted to them.

so what?

[Jords]

Originally Posted by lostalex

and have you met those guys that say "no fems" trust me, when you meet them, they are fem themselves, even if they have a pic that makes themselves look like masculine jocks. The minute they open their mouthes they sound like richard simmons.

I've met them. any guy that has "no fems" in their profile, i have learned that they are the most fem guys on the planet, no matter how many muscles they have.

"Ive met them" - every single one right? Course Ive met guys. Youre focusing on one 'fem' / 'masc' trait each time. And in this instance - only very physical traits. I was looking at it as a collective.

I am quite aware that there is a push in the gay community to "get the perfect body" - and if youre talking to one of them good luck engaging in a decent conversation

[Jords]

Originally Posted by Smithy

Heterophobia isn't a thing alex

I kinda think it is.

I have a gay mate who can get irritable quick with 'straight men' for "having it easy" and even 'straight women' for their ability to pull 'straight men'.

I remember once he got annoyed with my female friend because a bar man chatted her up, and he fancied him - but the bar man was straight so he had no chance anyway!!!

...hes a good guy but can be a dick about things, evidently

[Kizzy]

I think to many idiots are mistaken for 'ists'...

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by Jords

I kinda think it is.

I have a gay mate who can get irritable quick with 'straight men' for "having it easy" and even 'straight women' for their ability to pull 'straight men'.

I remember once he got annoyed with my female friend because a bar man chatted her up, and he fancied him - but the bar man was straight so he had no chance anyway!!!

...hes a good guy but can be a dick about things, evidently

That's just jealousy, of course gay people have it harder, it's not heterophoia

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Smithy

Heterophobia isn't a thing alex

.

Just gonna leave this quote here:

"To discriminate, you need power, privilege, and prejudice." - the only sexuality to have all three of those things would be straight people. So heterophobia isn't real

[Jords]

Originally Posted by Smithy

That's just jealousy, of course gay people have it harder, it's not heterophoia

jealousy can foster phobia through anxiety

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by Jords

jealousy can foster phobia through anxiety

Well fair enough, but I'm guessing your friend doesn't hate straight people, he just hates that they have life a lot easier than he does, that's not heterophobia

[Jords]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

.

Just gonna leave this quote here:

"To discriminate, you need power, privilege, and prejudice." - the only sexuality to have all three of those things would be straight people. So heterophobia isn't real

No. Discrimination is treatment in favour or against an outgroup i.e. a subpopulation of people that you dont belong to. If homophobia exists - so does heterophobia - in some cases probably with similar reasoning (e.g. not in agreement with their lifestyle - marriage etc.).

[Jords]

Originally Posted by Smithy

Well fair enough, but I'm guessing your friend doesn't hate straight people, he just hates that they have life a lot easier than he does, that's not heterophobia

I dont think thats a proper justification.

A sexist man - in most cases - doesnt hate women but hates their ability to be independent and in control.

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by Jords

No. Discrimination is treatment in favour or against an outgroup i.e. a subpopulation of people that you dont belong to. If homophobia exists - so does heterophobia - in some cases probably with similar reasoning (e.g. not in agreement with their lifestyle - marriage etc.).

Thank you. Well said. I hate this notion that only poor, unprivileged people can be badly treated.

[Kizzy]

I wouldn't say heterophobia exists, it's a reaction to the ignorance that is born out of homophobia and based on anger not fear.

[Jords]

I would just like to highlight that phobias are often irrational. Yes there can be rational arguments applied to why a gay person may not be fond of straight people - similarly a straight person may not be fond of gay people and not necessarily be homophobic. This leaves room for heterophobia.


To put an example in to context...

A gay person who feels threatened by straight women who can date straight men and displays 'hate' for straight women could be seen as heterophobic. Firstly the gay person should not feel threatened by straight women in this way because they do not have a chance with straight men anyway, plus there are other gay men to date, but also this is a very exaggerated and insecure response.

Its to do with anxiety and feeling fearful - this could be directed at straight women themselves or to the situation in which a gay men, straight women and straight men are all together and there is an opportunity for dates to arise (e.g. clubs). In the latter they dont necessarily 'hate' straight women but they show heterophobic tendencies when this sort of situation arises. Irritational.

This context also works with homophobia...

A straight man who feels threatened by gay men who aims to date men may 'display' hate for gay men and be homophobic. Again, the straight man should not feel threatened because the gay man might not try it on with him - or if he does can easily reject the offer - but once again its a very exaggerated and insecure response resulting from anxiety and feeling fearful. Furthermore they dont necessarily 'hate' gay men but they show homophobic tendencies again when this sort of situation arises. Irrational.


Obviously this context is just based on 'dating' but it extends into wider social structures. For example homophobia may be based on the disagreement and fear of what it means to have to 2 men living together as a 'family unit' - whilst heterophobia may be based on the disagreement and fear of society's insistence that 1 man and 1 woman should live together and have children as a 'family unit' and ideally be married etc. etc.


If one exists so does the other.

[Smithy]

literally heterophobia does not exist, if you google it the only stuff that comes up is urban dictionary and things mocking it

Heterophobia is the non-existent supposed "fear and mistrust" of heterosexual people. It is a neologism that is used against the LGBT community as a snarl word designed to delegitimize the gay rights movement, its campaign for equal treatment, and aim to end to anti-gay bigotry. The term implies that, rather than reacting to anti-gay rhetoric, gay rights advocates are in fact speaking out against heterosexuality and heterosexuals in a demeaning or bigoted manner. This phraseology attempts to equate the fight against bigotry with bigotry itself.[1] Despite the rare specific instance (see below), on the institutional level it is fairly obvious that "heterophobia" does not exist

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Heterophobia

[Niall]

You can be easily homophobic and gay. All you need to do is go on Grindr and talk to anyone identifying themselves as straight acting. Ask them how they feel about 'fem' gay guys. Watch how they bemoan them for not being masculine enough.

It's a ridiculous paradox, but like Shaun said the amount of discrimination based on kinks/fetishes or downright prejudice are evidence enough of it. And it's often white gay men that are the worst at it. Internalised homophobia is a big, BIG problem.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Jords

I would just like to highlight that phobias are often irrational. Yes there can be rational arguments applied to why a gay person may not be fond of straight people - similarly a straight person may not be fond of gay people and not necessarily be homophobic. This leaves room for heterophobia.


To put an example in to context...

A gay person who feels threatened by straight women who can date straight men and displays 'hate' for straight women could be seen as heterophobic. Firstly the gay person should not feel threatened by straight women in this way because they do not have a chance with straight men anyway, plus there are other gay men to date, but also this is a very exaggerated and insecure response.

Its to do with anxiety and feeling fearful - this could be directed at straight women themselves or to the situation in which a gay men, straight women and straight men are all together and there is an opportunity for dates to arise (e.g. clubs). In the latter they dont necessarily 'hate' straight women but they show heterophobic tendencies when this sort of situation arises. Irritational.

This context also works with homophobia...

A straight man who feels threatened by gay men who aims to date men may 'display' hate for gay men and be homophobic. Again, the straight man should not feel threatened because the gay man might not try it on with him - or if he does can easily reject the offer - but once again its a very exaggerated and insecure response resulting from anxiety and feeling fearful. Furthermore they dont necessarily 'hate' gay men but they show homophobic tendencies again when this sort of situation arises. Irrational.


Obviously this context is just based on 'dating' but it extends into wider social structures. For example homophobia may be based on the disagreement and fear of what it means to have to 2 men living together as a 'family unit' - whilst heterophobia may be based on the disagreement and fear of society's insistence that 1 man and 1 woman should live together and have children as a 'family unit' and ideally be married etc. etc.


If one exists so does the other.

I wouldn't say homophobia was a 'phobia' in the true sense of the word either.
Just a made up word to describe fear and ignorance.