[arista]

Originally Posted by Shaun

Does NATO even carry that much significance any more? I hardly expect a Russian retaliation would prompt everyone involved to get up in arms (literally).

No

Russia is better
but needs to get routes sorted

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by MTVN

A woman outside the Turkish embassy in Moscow

Russian women,There are'nt many ugly ones.They're all fit.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Shaun

Does NATO even carry that much significance any more? I hardly expect a Russian retaliation would prompt everyone involved to get up in arms (literally).

If Russia attacked a NATO member?Yes it would be very serious.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Shaun

Does NATO even carry that much significance any more? I hardly expect a Russian retaliation would prompt everyone involved to get up in arms (literally).

Absolutely, Nato is all about collective protection, its just that none of them have been threatened/attacked recently ... and that is true because they are members of Nato.

[arista]

Both Pilots were Shot dead by Turkey Guns.

Putin has now told Russians to not go to Turkey


New update
Ref: Radio5

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Before the war Syria was a stable, secular and relatively sophisticated country with solid standards of living and education. Yes Assad was a brutal dictator: many world leaders are. But the genocide, slavery, mass rape, beheadings and all the other atrocities that ISIS have committed put them in a different league to the Assad government. And he was never a threat to our own national security: ISIS are.

Thankfully the Russians have been quite restrained about this far and are not leaping to escalate it. Lets hope that continues even though both pilots are now reported to be dead.

Another brilliant assessment of the situation MTVN.

[arista]

That Turkish leader better watch his back

http://news.sky.com/story/1593241/pu...ab-in-the-back

Stabbing Putin in the back
is crazy

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

It will be slightly better and less complicated if both pilots died on the way down or on impact than if either one was killed when they landed.

They were shot by Turks

[bots]

Originally Posted by Cherie

They were shot by Turks

if they were shot, it would be by IS supporting Turks. It's about time Turkey took up a definitive position and stopped playing both sides as it suits it.

[rubymoo]

This probably warrants another thread, i read on BBC News yesterday that a Russian sub was seen off the coast of Scotland, apparently there are fears they want to cut cables???

[arista]

Yes Turkey
Kills the Kurds.

Kurds are now armed by America
to help them take out Isis,


So Turkey is in a Hell of a Mess
Avoid it on Holidays for now

[arista]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

This probably warrants another thread, i read on BBC News yesterday that a Russian sub was seen off the coast of Scotland, apparently there are fears they want to cut cables???

No its OK on this thread
they are around the UK alot,
its gone on for years.

[Drew.]

Putin going to war with the Turks, this is Novos wet dream

[MTVN]

Good article:

Not only does the pro-Assad alliance now have Russian support firmly on its side, but the international community is no longer focused on defeating the regime – instead, it is concerned with defeating jihadist groups like Isis.

The shift in focus is a significant drawback for Erdogan. Years of support for, and investment in, Islamic fundamentalist groups like Jabhat al-Nusra (Al-Qaeda’s affiliate in Syria) and Ahrar al-Sham are about to go to waste. Ankara has played a significant role in allowing Isis and other jihadists to flourish in Syria and the region. Turkey has acquiesced to jihadist groups entering Syria via Turkey as well as their use of Turkey as a transit point for smuggling arms and funds into Syria.

The Kurds in Syria, meanwhile, have established themselves as a reliable Western ally and have created, in the process, an autonomous Kurdish region that has reinvigorated Kurdish nationalism in Turkey and across the region - much to Turkey’s dismay as it continues a brutal military campaign to repress the Kurds.

Turkey has no interest in the peaceful settlement to the conflict in Syria that world powers are negotiating. As it gets desperate, Turkey will attempt to bring focus back on the Assad regime and reverse the losses it has made both in Syria and geopolitically. The decision to bring down the Russian jet is, therefore, likely to have had other political factors behind it - particularly since the jet, as far as we know, posed no immediate threat to Turkey’s national security.

More here: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a6747161.html

[Novo]

Savage animals, why couldn't they do it the right way and escort the plane out if it thought it was violating Airspace? and there are reports of a member of the rescue team killed as well looking for the Pilots, a clear sign of the hatred from The Turks towards Russia probably more to do with its Eastern Orthodox religion and ties with Greece and all Obama can say is " Turkey had a right to defend its borders " big time Charlatan

[bots]

This is a good article. Turkey does have a different agenda, and they need to be called out on it before we really get hurt.

[Z]

Originally Posted by NovoBaratheon

Savage animals, why couldn't they do it the right way and escort the plane out if it thought it was violating Airspace? and there are reports of a member of the rescue team killed as well looking for the Pilots, a clear sign of the hatred from The Turks towards Russia probably more to do with its Eastern Orthodox religion and ties with Greece and all Obama can say is " Turkey had a right to defend its borders " big time Charlatan

Agreed. I think the Turks have been extremely shrewd about the unfolding civil war in Syria and have been taking full advantage of the situation and I think Erdogan is a tyrant. While for obvious reasons I hope the Russians don't retaliate and escalate the situation, they have every right to do so and although there is a kind of a morbid irony about Russia being on the receiving end of a plane being unexpectedly shot down over civil war territory, I don't think the Turkish had any right to jump up to such extremes.

[DemolitionRed]

War isn't clean and its not only people on the ground that get killed. Russia clearly invaded Turkish air space, was intercepted, warned and shot down.

I don't understand the surprise. A Russian jet that regularly bombs surrounding areas was shot down for infringing EU air space. The EU will not be dis embowling Turkey for this.

[Z]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

War isn't clean and its not only people on the ground that get killed. Russia clearly invaded Turkish air space, was intercepted, warned and shot down.

I don't understand the surprise. A Russian jet that regularly bombs surrounding areas was shot down for infringing EU air space. The EU will not be dis embowling Turkey for this.

Turkey isn't in the EU but I agree with your general point that western alliances won't be cracking down on Turkey for this; which is a pity because I think Turkey have been unscrupulously horrific throughout this unfolding crisis.

[bots]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

War isn't clean and its not only people on the ground that get killed. Russia clearly invaded Turkish air space, was intercepted, warned and shot down.

I don't understand the surprise. A Russian jet that regularly bombs surrounding areas was shot down for infringing EU air space. The EU will not be dis embowling Turkey for this.

reading reports, its far from clear that Russia did invade Turkish airspace, and if they did, it was for less than 1 or 2 seconds, so the Turks have been trigger happy. They also know what's going on there, and know that the NATO allies are supportive of Russia at the moment, so it was unnecessary and extreme to shoot the plane down.

[Novo]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

War isn't clean and its not only people on the ground that get killed. Russia clearly invaded Turkish air space, was intercepted, warned and shot down.

I don't understand the surprise. A Russian jet that regularly bombs surrounding areas was shot down for infringing EU air space. The EU will not be dis embowling Turkey for this.

well it wasn't clearly.. it was right on the border and they were in there for a matter of seconds but still were shot down without posing any threat whats so ever, Nato have been violating other countrys airspace for years with clear threats and making there own rules as they go along but of course god forbid anyone who say otherwise, can't have 1 rule for one Country and another for Nato Countrys, thats not how the World should work.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Z

Turkey isn't in the EU but I agree with your general point that western alliances won't be cracking down on Turkey for this; which is a pity because I think Turkey have been unscrupulously horrific throughout this unfolding crisis.

Sorry, I meant NATO.

[DemolitionRed]

I have this sick feeling in my stomach that what we have just witnessed the opening shots of WW3.

Turkey is both a Muslim nation and also a member of NATO, under the terms of that treaty Britain is obliged to defend Turkey should Russia attack.
A messy situation has just got a whole lot messier.

[Novo]

Just like to point out this year Turkey violated Greek airspace with six fighter jets who were actually in formation and you can say that could be seen as a clear threat and warranted action a whole lot more then today did but they were chased off and the problem avoided and these incidents have happened thousands of times in the past 2 years, just like Zee said there really was no logical reason to attack that Russian Jet and it could have easily been avoided.

[Anaesthesia]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I have this sick feeling in my stomach that what we have just witnessed the opening shots of WW3.

Turkey is both a Muslim nation and also a member of NATO, under the terms of that treaty Britain is obliged to defend Turkey should Russia attack.
A messy situation has just got a whole lot messier.

Sadly I feel the same.

I have to make an inappropriate joke though:




I know it's about Ukraine, but still........