[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

A clever man.The first quote is eerily familiar.I would say that there is possibly no such thing as a completely "virtuous people".Greed appears in almost everyone and given the opportunity to capitalise on it a large percentage of people will.It is a dog eat dog world.
I have actually been meaning to read some Plato and Socrates at some point after i've finished with the Bible.Very interesting.

Its facinating stuff NM.

[user104658]

It's worth noting really that those early philosophers lived in what were mankind's first democracies. Different in many ways to modern ones but similar in concept, obviously. These civilisations were wealthy, and powerful, and comfortable enough for most... And they DID crumble. It's easy to see the progression of history through time as an upwards progression but it really isn't one. These societies (ancient Greeks, the Roman Empire) were FAR more advanced in many ways than Europe in feudal times... A thousand or more years later. It's worth remembering. In 500 years people (if there are any) may well be sat around pondering, "Isn't it weird that society was more advanced in 2000 than in 2250?"

[Kizzy]

What I take from his teaching is that freedoms in certain sectors are exploited and it is the duty of those within the society to take action to stop the rot of corruption, however when that corruption is happening from the top down...it becomes impossible.
If they were held accountable, and those in govt and business were as culpable as the common man then that would show that there is a balance of justice, which is the bedrock of democracy.

For me this is why the ruling of the supreme court on brexit was so pivotal, it showed that the law of the land has the power over governments too, it sent a powerful message that we are a democracy and that was it at work in it's purest form.
constituencies can be doctored, voting tampered with, media influenced but judges take everything down to the bare bones and look at what is constitutionally sacrosanct.

I believe that freedoms and rights are a necessity within a democracy, however that does not stretch to deregulation or self regulation of powerful organisations, there must be safeguards against corruption to prevent this risking the stability of the nation.
My feeling is that Platos 'democracy without virtue' is what we are witnessing now, nothing is for the greater good, rather to maximise profit, that may be seen as an acceptable norm today and nobody is 'virtuous' which may be true...less is not more, more is more.

This comes at a cost, as more and more people are disadvantaged and the haves turn a blind eye to the have nots, the scope of the have nots has grown from a gap to a gulf.
I pity this generation with a millstone of debt for daring to secure a degree, unable to find affordable housing, crippled with record energy, living and fuel costs, what of their democracy, our legacy to them is that democracy has failed...it hasn't, we have failed democracy.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What I take from his teaching is that freedoms in certain sectors are exploited and it is the duty of those within the society to take action to stop the rot of corruption, however when that corruption is happening from the top down...it becomes impossible.
If they were held accountable, and those in govt and business were as culpable as the common man then that would show that there is a balance of justice, which is the bedrock of democracy.

For me this is why the ruling of the supreme court on brexit was so pivotal, it showed that the law of the land has the power over governments too, it sent a powerful message that we are a democracy and that was it at work in it's purest form.
constituencies can be doctored, voting tampered with, media influenced but judges take everything down to the bare bones and look at what is constitutionally sacrosanct.

I believe that freedoms and rights are a necessity within a democracy, however that does not stretch to deregulation or self regulation of powerful organisations, there must be safeguards against corruption to prevent this risking the stability of the nation.
My feeling is that Platos 'democracy without virtue' is what we are witnessing now, nothing is for the greater good, rather to maximise profit, that may be seen as an acceptable norm today and nobody is 'virtuous' which may be true...less is not more, more is more.

This comes at a cost, as more and more people are disadvantaged and the haves turn a blind eye to the have nots, the scope of the have nots has grown from a gap to a gulf.
I pity this generation with a millstone of debt for daring to secure a degree, unable to find affordable housing, crippled with record energy, living and fuel costs, what of their democracy, our legacy to them is that democracy has failed...it hasn't, we have failed democracy.

Fantastic post Kizzy. I'm so glad you've joined in this debate

The erosion of civil liberties, the collapse of political freedoms and the rise of neo-nazi thinkers, its not freedom, its fraud.

When economic interest overpowers your vote and a tenth of the 1% of the richest people in America, controls the decisions made by millions of people and nobody without political privilege can get involved and when the 70% of the American population do not have any kind of influence on the policies in their country they no longer live in a democracy that represents its people.

" land only becomes a democracy when the poor are victorious

Yes, America are living in a failed democracy and its only those with survival instincts that are asking, "what the fcuks going on?...

What we have to remember is, Britain is in the habit of hanging off the American coattails and the oligarchs that are presently ruling this country could so easily tip the balance.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Fantastic post Kizzy. I'm so glad you've joined in this debate

The erosion of civil liberties, the collapse of political freedoms and the rise of neo-nazi thinkers, its not freedom, its fraud.

When economic interest overpowers your vote and a tenth of the 1% of the richest people in America, controls the decisions made by millions of people and nobody without political privilege can get involved and when the 70% of the American population do not have any kind of influence on the policies in their country they no longer live in a democracy that represents its people.

" land only becomes a democracy when the poor are victorious

Yes, America are living in a failed democracy and its only those with survival instincts that are asking, "what the fcuks going on?...

What we have to remember is, Britain is in the habit of hanging off the American coattails and the oligarchs that are presently ruling this country could so easily tip the balance.

Thank you DR really lovely of you to say, at last a serious debate in serious debates

Excellent topic really thought provoking.

[Niamh.]

Just watched the video there, it's really interesting. What is the solution though?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Just watch the video there, it's really interesting. What is the solution though?

Small democratic communities of a couple of hundred people at most, with a global population in the low millions with plenty of land to go around. Like normal primates.

In other words; there isn't one, we broke it

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Small democratic communities of a couple of hundred people at most, with a global population in the low millions with plenty of land to go around. Like normal primates.

In other words; there isn't one, we broke it

Yeah, more like "clans" I suppose like how we would have started out? Yep too late

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah, more like "clans" I suppose like how we would have started out? Yep too late

Maybe not... if the human population is devastated by a supervirus ("The Stand" style) that kills 99%+ of humans, it could work out OK. Of course that has to happen before we nuke ourselves. Or trigger irreversible global warming. ... .. .... so, there's hope yet!

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Maybe not... if the human population is devastated by a supervirus ("The Stand" style) that kills 99%+ of humans, it could work out OK. Of course that has to happen before we nuke ourselves. Or trigger irreversible global warming. ... .. .... so, there's hope yet!

No there's no such thing as Global Warming anymore, remember?

[Livia]

Nothing is ever going to work perfectly because people are so greedy, aggressive and despicable, generally.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Nothing is ever going to work perfectly because people are so greedy, aggressive and despicable, generally.

Yes this too. Power will pretty much always lead to corruption

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yes this too. Power will pretty much always lead to corruption

Hey! I'm supposed to be the forum cynic
I don't happen to believe that I believe that what the majority of people want is just a secure job with enough money to not have to choose whether to heat or eat.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely....or something like that, joe public just want to work to live, not live to work.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Nothing is ever going to work perfectly because people are so greedy, aggressive and despicable, generally.

Are we naturally inclined to be these things, though, or are those things the products of the type of societies we are raised in? Are people greedy because we're being bombarded with "things", and the idea that we SHOULD want "more", that "having more" than others is an indication of success in life.

Or do those societal values arise naturally because we DO have some sort of "instinct for greed", related to primal urges to gain and hold territory, and survival instinct. That "having more" for ourselves and our own small group = higher likelihood of survival.

Then again that's really just something to think about out of curiosity, because if it's where we are now, it doesn't really matter "why" I suppose.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Are we naturally inclined to be these things, though, or are those things the products of the type of societies we are raised in? Are people greedy because we're being bombarded with "things", and the idea that we SHOULD want "more", that "having more" than others is an indication of success in life.

Or do those societal values arise naturally because we DO have some sort of "instinct for greed", related to primal urges to gain and hold territory, and survival instinct. That "having more" for ourselves and our own small group = higher likelihood of survival.

Then again that's really just something to think about out of curiosity, because if it's where we are now, it doesn't really matter "why" I suppose.

It is an interesting discussion though, it's a little bit like the nature or nurture question

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Are we naturally inclined to be these things, though, or are those things the products of the type of societies we are raised in? Are people greedy because we're being bombarded with "things", and the idea that we SHOULD want "more", that "having more" than others is an indication of success in life.

Or do those societal values arise naturally because we DO have some sort of "instinct for greed", related to primal urges to gain and hold territory, and survival instinct. That "having more" for ourselves and our own small group = higher likelihood of survival.

Then again that's really just something to think about out of curiosity, because if it's where we are now, it doesn't really matter "why" I suppose.

Hmm...that's very thought provoking.
I'm just heading out to do some mundane tasks but at least you've now given me something to think about!!

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Are we naturally inclined to be these things, though, or are those things the products of the type of societies we are raised in? Are people greedy because we're being bombarded with "things", and the idea that we SHOULD want "more", that "having more" than others is an indication of success in life.

Or do those societal values arise naturally because we DO have some sort of "instinct for greed", related to primal urges to gain and hold territory, and survival instinct. That "having more" for ourselves and our own small group = higher likelihood of survival.

Then again that's really just something to think about out of curiosity, because if it's where we are now, it doesn't really matter "why" I suppose.

I believe there is a natural inclination to hoard assets in the same way that you would store a harvest for harder times and that the modern consumer society plays on that and amplifies it, so yes, I think we have become greedy but I believe we were pre-disposed to become greedy.

Thatcher deliberately played on peoples desire for material wealth and in turn, those who reveled in this new consumer environment made others feel like failures if they couldn't afford these goodies.

We could ask; are we programmable? (I think that's an easy one)
A tougher question is; What is the essence of human nature?

[Livia]

Humans didn't always live in big societies with lots of laws and governance. But we've always regularly slaughtered each other in massive batches. Humans are a bit like the French. Individually... charming. Collectively... not as nice as you'd imagine.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Humans didn't always live in big societies with lots of laws and governance. But we've always regularly slaughtered each other in massive batches. Humans are a bit like the French. Individually... charming. Collectively... not as nice as you'd imagine.

Even the ancient Mayans had governments.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Humans didn't always live in big societies with lots of laws and governance. But we've always regularly slaughtered each other in massive batches. Humans are a bit like the French. Individually... charming. Collectively... not as nice as you'd imagine.

True, we have been doing it all throughout recorded history but there was a lot of human history before we developed the tools to record it in writing or images. It does seem likely, based on the animal kingdom, that "Caveman Bob" would probably kill his neighbour "Caveman Joe" to take his food for himself and his family... but it only really makes sense that it would happen when food wasn't abundant. Otherwise you're putting yourself at risk (in a fight) for no reason. Also, the fact that societies exist AT ALL is evidence that we are capable of peaceful coexistence and co-operation in small to medium sized groups.

Then again, there was plenty of land and resources to go around on the American continent before Europeans arrived, and yet various tribes there were perpetually at war with each other.

Ponder ponder. It's making me want to study some Sociology. One of the few degree paths I haven't already stumbled half way down

[Niamh.]

No I feel really depressed all of a sudden

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

No I feel really depressed all of a sudden

Look away Niamh! I'm actually serious, too. Once you've stared into the abyss and had it stare right back, you can't ever look away. You'll see it everywhere. It is actually ****ing horrible.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

No I feel really depressed all of a sudden

Aw come here you big silly! people aren't all greedy and aggressive, if they were then how did the NHS come about? and all the philanthropic, charitable organisations?

There is a balance, sometimes it feels like it's tipping... but we're resilient.
As my dad said, 'Good will out'

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Aw come here you big silly! people aren't all greedy and aggressive, if they were then how did the NHS come about? and all the philanthropic, charitable organisations?

There is a balance, sometimes it feels like it's tipping... but we're resilient.
As my dad said, 'Good will out'

They aren't but greed and aggression are two fundamental aspects of ambition, and therefore, those are the people who rise to the top in politics, and in any other organisation that holds the allure of power. In other words; those who desire and chase power are the absolute WORST people to actually HAVE power. Trump is a very clear archetype of this.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Look away Niamh! I'm actually serious, too. Once you've stared into the abyss and had it stare right back, you can't ever look away. You'll see it everywhere. It is actually ****ing horrible.

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Aw come here you big silly! people aren't all greedy and aggressive, if they were then how did the NHS come about? and all the philanthropic, charitable organisations?

There is a balance, sometimes it feels like it's tipping... but we're resilient.
As my dad said, 'Good will out'

It just seems really bad times are coming, I like to think you're right, things seem very bleak now though