[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Can anyone who thinks it's fine, without googling, give me a brief rundown of the Anglo-Zulu war and British colonialism in southern Africa? Like do you know anything about it, at all? Can you, in reference to those very relevant events, explain to me why you believe that groups of White European British people dressing up as Zulu warriors to prance around in costumes might not be seen as racially insensitive by some people?

Or is this just the usual "I know nothing about it but no of course it's not racist, NOTHING is racist " stuff.

Oh wait I forgot; a couple of "real life" Zulu descendants who are involved in the show think it's OK so it must be OK.

well by that logic people who "claim" to be offended have no clue why either?

so you have answered your own question and ended the thread

Bingo

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

well by that logic people who "claim" to be offended have no clue why either?

so you have answered your own question and ended the thread

Bingo

You're going to have to explain "that logic" LT (using actual logic, plz, not supposition) because it doesn't logically follow at all. Like literally.

A = know the history
B = do not know the history
C = think it's racially offensive
D = think it's fine

My statement is a simple pair;
if A then C
most D then B



You have taken those statements and made your own supposition that;

if D = B then C = B



tl;dr you're incorrect, it doesn't logically follow at all.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

well by that logic people who "claim" to be offended have no clue why either?

so you have answered your own question and ended the thread

Bingo

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Can anyone who thinks it's fine, without googling, give me a brief rundown of the Anglo-Zulu war and British colonialism in southern Africa? Like do you know anything about it, at all? Can you, in reference to those very relevant events, explain to me why you believe that groups of White European British people dressing up as Zulu warriors to prance around in costumes might not be seen as racially insensitive by some people?

Or is this just the usual "I know nothing about it but no of course it's not racist, NOTHING is racist " stuff.

Oh wait I forgot; a couple of "real life" Zulu descendants who are involved in the show think it's OK so it must be OK.

Putting a slightly different slant on it, but the principle is the same in my opinion, should women then not be offended when men dress up as women for entertainment purposes ie drag queens.

Don’t you think that men dressing up as women to prance around in costumes might not be seen as sexist and insensitive by some people! Or don’t the feelings of women count as they seem to be the most mis-treated group of people worldwide despite making up 50% of the population. What does that say about how women and their feelings count in the eyes of many.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Putting a slightly different slant on it, but the principle is the same in my opinion, should women then not be offended when men dress up as women for entertainment purposes ie drag queens.

Don’t you think that men dressing up as women to prance around in costumes might not be seen as sexist and insensitive by some people! Or don’t the feelings of women count as they seem to be the most mis-treated group of people worldwide despite making up 50% of the population. What does that say about how women and their feelings count in the eyes of many.

I'm sure many are offended by it, but then, they would probably be even more offended by it if the people doing it had invaded their continent to enslave its population, cut them down in the thousands with Gatling cannons, proceded to exploit the land for every resource available, then left behind a wrecked continent rife with poverty and corruption. Just a thought.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm sure many are offended by it, but then, they would probably be even more offended by it if the people doing it had invaded their continent to enslave its population, cut them down in the thousands with Gatling cannons, proceded to exploit the land for every resource available, then left behind a wrecked continent rife with poverty and corruption. Just a thought.

You don’t think women have and are still being enslaved by many men. I would imagine many women in certain parts of the world, probably here in Britain, still feel and are enslaved with no say in their own lives.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Can anyone who thinks it's fine, without googling, give me a brief rundown of the Anglo-Zulu war and British colonialism in southern Africa? Like do you know anything about it, at all? Can you, in reference to those very relevant events, explain to me why you believe that groups of White European British people dressing up as Zulu warriors to prance around in costumes might not be seen as racially insensitive by some people?

Or is this just the usual "I know nothing about it but no of course it's not racist, NOTHING is racist " stuff.

Oh wait I forgot; a couple of "real life" Zulu descendants who are involved in the show think it's OK so it must be OK.

This isn't about Zulu's because you're not their spokesman. This is about your feelings, and I couldn't give a shining sh1te about your feelings, so get of your high-horse and stop trying to dictate what people should and shouldn't do.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Alf

This isn't about Zulu's because you're not their spokesman. This is about your feelings, and I couldn't give a shining sh1te about your feelings, so get of your high-horse and stop trying to dictate what people should and shouldn't do.

It's about "my feelings"? I'm not personally offended by it at all Alf, hate to break it to you, I'm sure it'd give you that down-low tickle if I was. The thread title was a question, I'm answering the question. And as there don't appear to be any Zulus on the forum... it would be a pretty quiet thread if non-Zulus weren't supposed to answer .

Unless the only acceptable answer is "Oh derp I denno cos I'm not a Zulu!"

Though that would explain quite a lot about many people's inability to grasp the concept of racism . "Werl I'm not one of them so I denno what is a racism".

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's about "my feelings"? I'm not personally offended by it at all Alf, hate to break it to you, I'm sure it'd give you that down-low tickle if I was. The thread title was a question, I'm answering the question. And as there don't appear to be any Zulus on the forum... it would be a pretty quiet thread if non-Zulus weren't supposed to answer .

Unless the only acceptable answer is "Oh derp I denno cos I'm not a Zulu!"

Though that would explain quite a lot about many people's inability to grasp the concept of racism . "Werl I'm not one of them so I denno what is a racism".

For an articulate poster I am always disappointed when you regularly resort to attempting to undermine other posters by attempting to suggest that anyone you perceive may have ‘racist’ views must be ‘semi-illiterate and uneducated’ with the use of language such as ‘derp’ and ’denno’’. Patronising or manipulative or both - hmm!

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

For an articulate poster I am always disappointed when you regularly resort to attempting to undermine other posters by attempting to suggest that anyone you perceive may have ‘racist’ views must be ‘semi-illiterate and uneducated’ with the use of language such as ‘derp’ and ’denno’’. Patronising or manipulative or both - hmm!

See, that's where you're wrong Brillo. I don't think people are semi-illiterate, uneducated or stupid, and that's really my main problem with it. I think people willfully PRETEND that they don't "get why it might be racially insensitive" because they don't want to change their behavior, or feel that by being asked to be considerate they are somehow being controlled or having their freedoms removed. I highly suspect that certain people arguing against the idea that it might be racist understand the argument perfectly well, but will swear blue in the face that they don't, because it doesn't suit them to be understanding of it. Hence; "Derp!". It's not me saying that people ARE stupid, it's me saying "Stop ****ing pretending to be", even if you do disagree with it, argue against it and justify it PROPERLY instead of pretending "not to get it at all".

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Alf

This isn't about Zulu's because you're not their spokesman. This is about your feelings, and I couldn't give a shining sh1te about your feelings, so get of your high-horse and stop trying to dictate what people should and shouldn't do.

You know it's kind of funny but the argument some are having is over the post title or what I pointed out about the article and it is obvious to me they haven't read it. The article is quite interesting and talks about three different view points.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Alf

This isn't about Zulu's because you're not their spokesman. This is about your feelings, and I couldn't give a shining sh1te about your feelings, so get of your high-horse and stop trying to dictate what people should and shouldn't do.

He's giving his opinion, as he's entitled.

Now who's dictating what people can do?

[Alf]

Some people are just trying to have a bit of fun by dressing up in fancy dress once a year. And some people are trying to stop the fun.

You can see who the trouble causers are.

[Oliver_W]

So we're apparently using the Sociology class definition of racism, i.e. "it's power+privilege REEEE" rather than the actual, working definition. Okay.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

So we're apparently using the Sociology class definition of racism, i.e. "it's power+privilege REEEE" rather than the actual, working definition. Okay.

I'll save you some trouble here;

"Racism" is probably too broad a stroke for what we're talking about in this thread.

No it is not actively racist. However it is racially insensitive. If the latter term helps you to form a clearer opinion here, you should go with that.

[Alf]

Freedom? these Marxists hate it.

[Tom4784]

The act of Blackface is inherently racist.

[Kizzy]

''I think this constant over-reaction to anything related to skin colour has undermined and devalued racism and it has lost its meaning.''

Or... some never gave a toss about racism in the first instance.
I have to say in relation to things being distasteful the intonation that racism is tolerable because those who you suggest make accusations of racism are sexist is the most bizarre excuse for prejudice I have ever heard Brillo.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

.
I have to say in relation to things being distasteful the intonation that racism is tolerable because those who you suggest make accusations of racism are sexist is the most bizarre excuse for prejudice I have ever heard Brillo.

This part is very true, I have to say. Like maybe if it was a random comparison once but, Brillo, it's your go-to thing whenever racism is mentioned and it's just... I don't know. It's somewhere way beyond a strawman argument.

Anyone: "Well, I think this could be seen as racist because..."

Brillo: "SOME PEOPLE ARE SEXIST."

"They are Brillo, that's true and a problem. But back to the actual topic being discussed..."

"OMG I can't believe you don't care about sexism??"


The only word for it is bizarre. Very similar to when The Truth used to come into every thread and say "OH YEAH well men have a high suicide rate and never get custody of the kids!"

... And you hated that.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This part is very true, I have to say. Like maybe if it was a random comparison once but, Brillo, it's your go-to thing whenever racism is mentioned and it's just... I don't know. It's somewhere way beyond a strawman argument.

Anyone: "Well, I think this could be seen as racist because..."

Brillo: "SOME PEOPLE ARE SEXIST."

"They are Brillo, that's true and a problem. But back to the actual topic being discussed..."

"OMG I can't believe you don't care about sexism??"


The only word for it is bizarre. Very similar to when The Truth used to come into every thread and say "OH YEAH well men have a high suicide rate and never get custody of the kids!"

... And you hated that.

100,000 babies dying

[smudgie]

Having lived in both South Africa and Zimbabwe and our history lessons were full of the Southern African history I can still say I don't see it as racist.
The British were at war with the Zulu and did indeed kill many, but they also made their peace over the years.
The Zulu tribe also killed many and massacred innocents from other tribes.
That is in the past.
Celebrating what great warriors they were and dressing in their traditional dress
Could be seen as a celebration of them rather than racist, depends on your mindset I suppose.
It is fancy dress in a parade by one of seven historic groups.
I would be more concerned that people feel they have to hide our part in the history of the world. Good or bad.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Having lived in both South Africa and Zimbabwe and our history lessons were full of the Southern African history I can still say I don't see it as racist.
The British were at war with the Zulu and did indeed kill many, but they also made their peace over the years.
The Zulu tribe also killed many and massacred innocents from other tribes.
That is in the past.
Celebrating what great warriors they were and dressing in their traditional dress
Could be seen as a celebration of them rather than racist, depends on your mindset I suppose.
It is fancy dress in a parade by one of seven historic groups.
I would be more concerned that people feel they have to hide our part in the history of the world. Good or bad.

Dressing in their traditional dress would be one thing I could just about see.

"Blacking up" would be another altogether I think.

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Dressing in their traditional dress would be one thing I could just about see.

"Blacking up" would be another altogether I think.

I suppose it looks more authentic
If there are actually Zulu people in Lewes offended by it then it should be stopped, but it appears not to be the case.
I would be obviously very anti "blacking up" if it was in any way meant to be derogatory.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Dressing in their traditional dress would be one thing I could just about see.

"Blacking up" would be another altogether I think.

Were zulus not black. Is black a dirty word then because that is how it sounds when people seem so concerned about even mentioning skin colour never mind recreating it for authenticity. What is wrong with people being black and proud rather than people sshhusing at the mere mention that zulus were black. So.

I find it all absurd.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Were zulus not black. Is black a dirty word then because that is how it sounds when people seem so concerned about even mentioning skin colour never mind recreating it for authenticity. What is wrong with people being black and proud rather than people sshhusing at the mere mention that zulus were black. So.

I find it all absurd.

Nothing at all wrong with being black and proud, obviously. Everything to do with white people 'blacking up'. This is not a either - or thing. I don't think anyone has suggested ignoring the fact that Zulus were black? Its that white people painting on black faces is likely to be deemed offensive by a lot of people...even if a few Zulus do not find it offensive.

Your own drag example shows how 'womanface' is offensive to some. So surely it stands to reason that 'blackface' is offensive to some also. Not every woman would be offended by 'womanface' or equate it with sexism (I am somewhat conflicted on that matter actually..as I do not believe woman is a costume that can be just pulled on at will, its a biological reality. BUT, I still do enjoy drag shows, whilst acknowledging that some find them offensive and I do acknowledge that they tend to be quite sexist), in the same regard as not every black person would be offended by 'blackface' or equate it with racism.

Class politics is a bit of a minefield though generally, as obviously differing opinions exist on all sides as no one demographic is a hive mind. But blackface is regarded by most as totally unnecessary (the only defense of this each time it is brought up seems to be 'but a better costume'), offensive, and racist. As such, blackface is not accepted by most rational people.

Yes, some people do seem to get offended at every little thing. And this 'microagression!' 'safe space' and such cries are very OTT and attentionseeking in so many instances. I do not believe that this is an instance where people are just looking to be offended though. Not by a long shot.