[Tom4784]

The act of Blackface is inherently racist.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Sexism is an issue of its own.

But, discarding one very real and very important issue by shouting "Well, there are other bad things happening in the world! " is kind of childish.

Yes, sexism is awful too but that's not the topic of this particular discussion, and let's not pretend sexism isn't a huge debate of its own across the world.

As far as "airtime" on TiBB, the very fact that such a large portion of the forum were completely outraged by a lot of "the truth's" ridiculous posts shows that thankfully we're largely a forum that doesn't tolerate sexism and the abuse that comes with it.

That was because the Truth’s views on women were pretty extreme but non-extreme views simply questioning allegations of racism are repeatedly labelled racist on here. I made a definitive link between men dressing as women for fun and entertainment as people dressing as zulus for the same reasons but judging by the reactions of some they see that as different - what is the difference? There is no difference.

Women are and always have been a maligned group and treated as a second-class by many men worldwide despite making up 50% of the population, which is worse. I am not aware of any shouts of sexism when men dress as women but it’s very different if a white person dresses as a Zulu. It’s double standards.

It proves to me that the constant uproar about so-called racism has more to do with what is fashionable and PC and being seen to be doing the right thing than it does with any real concerns with equality as any such genuine concerns would not be so selective.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

you asked for a Zulu, when they already had one

Nope, I said ask Zulus to perform instead, not blacken your face in some conceited attempt to emulate them.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Could you explain this statement please?

I don't agree with blackface either, if you want to celebrate zulus ask a zulu to come and give a talk, this exhibition however 'cultural' they paint it is still a homage to colonialism.

I would have thought it pretty explanatory. Sexism towards women is and always has been rife worldwide. If people want to be so pedantic about racism by being offended about a white person dressing up as a Zulu then the same should apply to men dressing up as women - some men, drag queens, even make a living out of it. No one makes a fuss about that. What is the difference?

I think this constant over-reaction to anything related to skin colour has undermined and devalued racism and it has lost its meaning. It has been used and abused and I don’t believe it has done race relations any favours. As a woman you can’t even see the selective nature of ‘racism’ today by many and how sexism is treated as a poor second. I find that disturbing.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

That was because the Truth’s views on women were pretty extreme but non-extreme views simply questioning allegations of racism are repeatedly labelled racist on here. I made a definitive link between men dressing as women for fun and entertainment as people dressing as zulus for the same reasons but judging by the reactions of some they see that as different - what is the difference? There is no difference.

Women are and always have been a maligned group and treated as a second-class by many men worldwide despite making up 50% of the population, which is worse. I am not aware of any shouts of sexism when men dress as women but it’s very different if a white person dresses as a Zulu. It’s double standards.

It proves to me that the constant uproar about so-called racism has more to do with what is fashionable and PC and being seen to be doing the right thing than it does with any real concerns with equality as any such genuine concerns would not be so selective.

I don't wish to derail the thread with this and only add it a it is relevant to the discussion, I don't feel either topic should have to vie for positions of importance, nor do I think they do.
I was aboult to start a thread on the impact of sexist attitudes in the UK strangely, I look forward to your input in that.

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-08-23/h...s-dress-sense/

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Alf

It's a fancy dress costume, there is no need to make it political. It's just someone having a fun night out at a fancy dress party, they are not trying to oppress anyone.

Heaven forbid that we not be OK with someone having a jolly good ol' time at the expense of others Alf.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I think this constant over-reaction to anything related to skin colour has undermined and devalued racism and it has lost its meaning.

I partially agree with that, but that's why I asked if people actually know the ins and outs of this specific issue. Not "general blackface" but the SPECIFIC anglo-zulu war, the war between the British Empire and the Zulu Nation, and why that SPECIFICALLY means that a British person "dressing up and doing a Zulu dance" for entertainment is seriously questionable. It's not a black-white thing. My opinion wouldn't be entirely the same if it was non-British people doing it, let's say a northern European country, where they are just as white as us... But... Y'know... Didn't engage in warfare against and defeat the Zulu by pumping them full of holes using vastly superior military equipment. Which the British Empire, specifically, did.

So maybe you're right. Maybe people jumping the gun and crying racism at every opportunity has lead people to be desensitised and ignorant to actual historical events that might deserve a little cultural sensitivity. Such as this one.

[Kizzy]

''I think this constant over-reaction to anything related to skin colour has undermined and devalued racism and it has lost its meaning.''

Or... some never gave a toss about racism in the first instance.
I have to say in relation to things being distasteful the intonation that racism is tolerable because those who you suggest make accusations of racism are sexist is the most bizarre excuse for prejudice I have ever heard Brillo.

[smudgie]

Having lived in both South Africa and Zimbabwe and our history lessons were full of the Southern African history I can still say I don't see it as racist.
The British were at war with the Zulu and did indeed kill many, but they also made their peace over the years.
The Zulu tribe also killed many and massacred innocents from other tribes.
That is in the past.
Celebrating what great warriors they were and dressing in their traditional dress
Could be seen as a celebration of them rather than racist, depends on your mindset I suppose.
It is fancy dress in a parade by one of seven historic groups.
I would be more concerned that people feel they have to hide our part in the history of the world. Good or bad.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

That was because the Truth’s views on women were pretty extreme but non-extreme views simply questioning allegations of racism are repeatedly labelled racist on here. I made a definitive link between men dressing as women for fun and entertainment as people dressing as zulus for the same reasons but judging by the reactions of some they see that as different - what is the difference? There is no difference.

Women are and always have been a maligned group and treated as a second-class by many men worldwide despite making up 50% of the population, which is worse. I am not aware of any shouts of sexism when men dress as women but it’s very different if a white person dresses as a Zulu. It’s double standards.

It proves to me that the constant uproar about so-called racism has more to do with what is fashionable and PC and being seen to be doing the right thing than it does with any real concerns with equality as any such genuine concerns would not be so selective.

If you can explain how a man dressing as a woman, or a woman dressing as a man is sexist or at all comparable to blackface then you'll have a discussion.

As it is, you're taking an unrelated topic, and warping it to make a point about something else.

Note: Using the term PC fifty times a day does not give your posts more validity.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Having lived in both South Africa and Zimbabwe and our history lessons were full of the Southern African history I can still say I don't see it as racist.
The British were at war with the Zulu and did indeed kill many, but they also made their peace over the years.
The Zulu tribe also killed many and massacred innocents from other tribes.
That is in the past.
Celebrating what great warriors they were and dressing in their traditional dress
Could be seen as a celebration of them rather than racist, depends on your mindset I suppose.
It is fancy dress in a parade by one of seven historic groups.
I would be more concerned that people feel they have to hide our part in the history of the world. Good or bad.

Dressing in their traditional dress would be one thing I could just about see.

"Blacking up" would be another altogether I think.

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Dressing in their traditional dress would be one thing I could just about see.

"Blacking up" would be another altogether I think.

I suppose it looks more authentic
If there are actually Zulu people in Lewes offended by it then it should be stopped, but it appears not to be the case.
I would be obviously very anti "blacking up" if it was in any way meant to be derogatory.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Dressing in their traditional dress would be one thing I could just about see.

"Blacking up" would be another altogether I think.

Were zulus not black. Is black a dirty word then because that is how it sounds when people seem so concerned about even mentioning skin colour never mind recreating it for authenticity. What is wrong with people being black and proud rather than people sshhusing at the mere mention that zulus were black. So.

I find it all absurd.

[Shaun]

I was about to say "I can't believe we're hearing defences of blackface on TiBB in 2017" but... actually I can.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

.
I have to say in relation to things being distasteful the intonation that racism is tolerable because those who you suggest make accusations of racism are sexist is the most bizarre excuse for prejudice I have ever heard Brillo.

This part is very true, I have to say. Like maybe if it was a random comparison once but, Brillo, it's your go-to thing whenever racism is mentioned and it's just... I don't know. It's somewhere way beyond a strawman argument.

Anyone: "Well, I think this could be seen as racist because..."

Brillo: "SOME PEOPLE ARE SEXIST."

"They are Brillo, that's true and a problem. But back to the actual topic being discussed..."

"OMG I can't believe you don't care about sexism??"


The only word for it is bizarre. Very similar to when The Truth used to come into every thread and say "OH YEAH well men have a high suicide rate and never get custody of the kids!"

... And you hated that.

[DemolitionRed]

But many black Zulu dancers and festival goers will blacken their face. Face blackening is a Zulu tradition of mysticism and magic. If white people understand those traditions and want to take part, should we stop them because its we think they are trying to impersonate a black person or because we don't think white people should join in with the mysticism and magic?

My nieces whitened their faces for 'Day of the Dead' in Mexico last year. They weren't trying to look like white people, they weren't taking the mickey or being disrespectful to white people; they were joining in with paying respect to the dead.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This part is very true, I have to say. Like maybe if it was a random comparison once but, Brillo, it's your go-to thing whenever racism is mentioned and it's just... I don't know. It's somewhere way beyond a strawman argument.

Anyone: "Well, I think this could be seen as racist because..."

Brillo: "SOME PEOPLE ARE SEXIST."

"They are Brillo, that's true and a problem. But back to the actual topic being discussed..."

"OMG I can't believe you don't care about sexism??"


The only word for it is bizarre. Very similar to when The Truth used to come into every thread and say "OH YEAH well men have a high suicide rate and never get custody of the kids!"

... And you hated that.

100,000 babies dying

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Were zulus not black. Is black a dirty word then because that is how it sounds when people seem so concerned about even mentioning skin colour never mind recreating it for authenticity. What is wrong with people being black and proud rather than people sshhusing at the mere mention that zulus were black. So.

I find it all absurd.

Nothing at all wrong with being black and proud, obviously. Everything to do with white people 'blacking up'. This is not a either - or thing. I don't think anyone has suggested ignoring the fact that Zulus were black? Its that white people painting on black faces is likely to be deemed offensive by a lot of people...even if a few Zulus do not find it offensive.

Your own drag example shows how 'womanface' is offensive to some. So surely it stands to reason that 'blackface' is offensive to some also. Not every woman would be offended by 'womanface' or equate it with sexism (I am somewhat conflicted on that matter actually..as I do not believe woman is a costume that can be just pulled on at will, its a biological reality. BUT, I still do enjoy drag shows, whilst acknowledging that some find them offensive and I do acknowledge that they tend to be quite sexist), in the same regard as not every black person would be offended by 'blackface' or equate it with racism.

Class politics is a bit of a minefield though generally, as obviously differing opinions exist on all sides as no one demographic is a hive mind. But blackface is regarded by most as totally unnecessary (the only defense of this each time it is brought up seems to be 'but a better costume'), offensive, and racist. As such, blackface is not accepted by most rational people.

Yes, some people do seem to get offended at every little thing. And this 'microagression!' 'safe space' and such cries are very OTT and attentionseeking in so many instances. I do not believe that this is an instance where people are just looking to be offended though. Not by a long shot.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

But many black Zulu dancers and festival goers will blacken their face. Face blackening is a Zulu tradition of mysticism and magic. If white people understand those traditions and want to take part, should we stop them because its we think they are trying to impersonate a black person or because we don't think white people should join in with the mysticism and magic?

My nieces whitened their faces for 'Day of the Dead' in Mexico last year. They weren't trying to look like white people, they weren't taking the mickey or being disrespectful to white people; they were joining in with paying respect to the dead.

Some commonsense.

[Vicky.]

Even with that huge paragraph, I admit I don't know much about Zulu people though tbh. So may be entirely off bat here. Blackface in general as part of a costume, is unacceptable.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Were zulus not black. Is black a dirty word then because that is how it sounds when people seem so concerned about even mentioning skin colour never mind recreating it for authenticity. What is wrong with people being black and proud rather than people sshhusing at the mere mention that zulus were black. So.

I find it all absurd.

I'm not surprised you find it all absurd because you keep completely misrepresenting what's being discussed.

Who said Zulus weren't black? Who said black is a dirty word? Who is offended at the mention of skin colour? Who said there was anything wrong with being black and proud?

Oh wait.... the actual discussion was about white people "blacking up", yes that was it.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

But many black Zulu dancers and festival goers will blacken their face. Face blackening is a Zulu tradition of mysticism and magic. If white people understand those traditions and want to take part, should we stop them because its we think they are trying to impersonate a black person or because we don't think white people should join in with the mysticism and magic?

My nieces whitened their faces for 'Day of the Dead' in Mexico last year. They weren't trying to look like white people, they weren't taking the mickey or being disrespectful to white people; they were joining in with paying respect to the dead.

This puts an interesting spin on it.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Even with that huge paragraph, I admit I don't know much about Zulu people though tbh. So may be entirely off bat here. Blackface in general as part of a costume, is unacceptable.

So what about black people whitening-up - would you have a problem with that?

If not, why not? Shouldn’t that be a question some should ask themselves. It does feel that people either want to be offended or have been conditioned to be offended by PC.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

But many black Zulu dancers and festival goers will blacken their face. Face blackening is a Zulu tradition of mysticism and magic. If white people understand those traditions and want to take part, should we stop them because its we think they are trying to impersonate a black person or because we don't think white people should join in with the mysticism and magic?

My nieces whitened their faces for 'Day of the Dead' in Mexico last year. They weren't trying to look like white people, they weren't taking the mickey or being disrespectful to white people; they were joining in with paying respect to the dead.

I would have thought that was screamingly obvious however the clue being of course it was 'the day of the dead'... :/

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

So what about black people whitening-up - would you have a problem with that?

If not, why not? Shouldn’t that be a question some should ask themselves. It does feel that people either want to be offended or have been conditioned to be offended by PC.

You've been watching 'White Chicks' haven't you?...