[Marsh.]

Well I would think a trans specific event would be the obvious solution. Just as they have Paralympics etc.

The only problem being the actual pool of trans athletes may be far too small.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Well I would think a trans specific event would be the obvious solution. Just as they have Paralympics etc.

The only problem being the actual pool of trans athletes may be far too small.

I'm sure if you think about that though Marsh you can see the problems there. People who transition do so to transition to the opposite gender... not to "become a trans". It's not supposed to be a third gender... that's sort of the point. I mean surely you realise that comparing it to a disability is (to use one of my most hated words) problematic?

I dunno. Like I said I can't figure out a working solution to this one that doesn't involve significant "othering". i.e. "I have to sign up for the Trans events because I'm not a man / woman, I am just a Trans".

And then, do you have a M2F category and a F2M category? Or do you just lump 'em all together and hope that it all hormonally and physically evens out?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm sure if you think about that though Marsh you can see the problems there. People who transition do so to transition to the opposite gender... not to "become a trans". It's not supposed to be a third gender... that's sort of the point. I mean surely you realise that comparing it to a disability is (to use one of my most hated words) problematic?

I dunno. Like I said I can't figure out a working solution to this one that doesn't involve significant "othering". i.e. "I have to sign up for the Trans events because I'm not a man / woman, I am just a Trans".

And then, do you have a M2F category and a F2M category? Or do you just lump 'em all together and hope that it all hormonally and physically evens out?

Erm... I didn't compare them to a disability. I simply used an example of a section of our society who would otherwise be excluded from elite sports being able to still compete without an unfair advantage/disadvantage.

Don't put words in my mouth by making out I called transpeople disabled. You're better than that.

Yeah, it's not supposed to be a third gender. But this isn't about gender, it's about sex and their physical makeup.

It's no more "othering" than having male and female categories. It's pretty simple but people are just fearful of causing offence when really there's nothing offensive about it.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Erm... I didn't compare them to a disability. I simply used an example of a section of our society who would otherwise be excluded from elite sports being able to still compete without an unfair advantage/disadvantage.

Don't put words in my mouth.

Yeah, it's not supposed to be a third gender. But this isn't about gender, it's about sex and their physical makeup.

It's no more "othering" than having male and female categories. It's pretty simple but people are just fearful of causing offence when really there's nothing offensive about it.

Exactly.

[bots]

i think it's ridiculous that women are again having to fight against discrimination, and what I find most disturbing is that so many are happy with that discrimination just because it acts as an advantage to another discriminated group.

[Vienna]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i think it's ridiculous that women are again having to fight against discrimination, and what I find most disturbing is that so many are happy with that discrimination just because it acts as an advantage to another discriminated group.

Most factual and relevant post on this thread. Very concerning that, for some, discrimination against women is less important and that women make ideal scapegoats.

[Livia]

Are there any female to male athletes weeping that they can't compete with men? Probably not... Because what would be the point? They'd never even get picked.

I see this as just another way of men oppressing women. Trans athletes should be able to compete... maybe with each other? But there should be X chromosomes in every female competitive athlete.

Write this without seeing BOTS and Vienna's posts. Agree with both.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i think it's ridiculous that women are again having to fight against discrimination, and what I find most disturbing is that so many are happy with that discrimination just because it acts as an advantage to another discriminated group.

Would you not agree though that it's a problem that seems impossible to solve without some sort of discrimination occurring? Again I'm not advocating for it, just saying that this is clearly a hugely complex issue that people need to be exploring in depth, rather than jumping off one side of the pier or the other.

"Just let 'em compete!"

or

"No that's stupid. Tough luck for them! I'll hear no more about it!"

...neither are the realistic or sensible conclusions, here.

[Tom4784]

India spoke a lot of sense, even taking hormones out of the equation, MtF athletes will have advantages over female athletes. It's just a fact and I don't think it's transphobic at all to point that out.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

India spoke a lot of sense, even taking hormones out of the equation, MtF athletes will have advantages over female athletes. It's just a fact and I don't think it's transphobic at all to point that out.

Right but I see a lot of people agreeing about the problem, with very little willingness to talk about any potential solution to that problem. Which is odd and why I often come away from these topics feeling like it's just a flood of dogma.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Right but I see a lot of people agreeing about the problem, with very little willingness to talk about any potential solution to that problem. Which is odd and why I often come away from these topics feeling like it's just a flood of dogma.

The solution is that no one should be able to compete in women's competitions unless they have the x chromosome.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

The solution is that no one should be able to compete in women's competitions unless they have the x chromosome.

That is, at best, a partial solution.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That is, at best, a partial solution.

What is it about women-only events you don't understand, TS?

If women allow this to happen we might as well go back to the 1950s and all you boys can direct our lives again... this time forever.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Livia

The solution is that no one should be able to compete in women's competitions unless they have the x chromosome.

So female-borns that transistion into men compete against women?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

So female-borns that transistion into men compete against women?

Depends what you mean by 'transition'. If 'transition' involves the taking of testosterone, then they should be treat the same as any other female who was taking performance enhancing drugs. If 'transition' means simply changes presentation and changes the stereotypes they follow, then of course, why not?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Withano

So female-borns that transistion into men compete against women?

Like that's ever going to be an issue.

This is about men continuing their control over women. That's my opinion.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Right but I see a lot of people agreeing about the problem, with very little willingness to talk about any potential solution to that problem. Which is odd and why I often come away from these topics feeling like it's just a flood of dogma.

A transgender section, with MtF and FtM categories, yes there is the issue that it might be a small category, but so be it?

I don't know what the solution is to team sports but we have to start somewhere

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I don't see why this couldn't be an option, it's the fairest thing for everyone

Originally Posted by Cherie

A transgender section, with MtF and FtM categories, yes there is the issue that it might be a small category, but so be it?

It's a very strong statement that "trans people" are a third separate gender that is neither male nor female. I know that a lot of people think that way; but I would hazard a guess that very few trans individuals think that way and I think the suggestion that they should just accept that as the "simple" solution with no further discussion is highly dismissive of the issues in a way that I just don't understand.

I understand it not being feasible for (especially) MtF transexuals to compete in female sports competitions but I don't understand, at all, the resistance to anyone properly exploring and discussing what is possible. |There's a lot of "NO! NEVER! We'll just do THIS and that's fine and they'll just have to accept that, end of." and again, always with these discussions I'm left wondering ... why? Why does it have to be "as simple as ..."? Why are we not saying "Yeah this doesn't really work, it would probably be a good idea if the various sporting organisations set up focus groups to figure out how to make each sport inclusive and fair at the same time". Like... the idea that we've explored all of the possibilities properly and thoroughly is just not true... but there seems to be a real (dare I say it) revulsion at the idea of even doing that and that it isn't a case of "No just no".

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's a very strong statement that "trans people" are a third separate gender that is neither male nor female. I know that a lot of people think that way; but I would hazard a guess that very few trans individuals think that way and I think the suggestion that they should just accept that as the "simple" solution with no further discussion is highly dismissive of the issues in a way that I just don't understand.

I understand it not being feasible for (especially) MtF transexuals to compete in female sports competitions but I don't understand, at all, the resistance to anyone properly exploring and discussing what is possible. |There's a lot of "NO! NEVER! We'll just do THIS and that's fine and they'll just have to accept that, end of." and again, always with these discussions I'm left wondering ... why? Why does it have to be "as simple as ..."? Why are we not saying "Yeah this doesn't really work, it would probably be a good idea if the various sporting organisations set up focus groups to figure out how to make each sport inclusive and fair at the same time". Like... the idea that we've explored all of the possibilities properly and thoroughly is just not true... but there seems to be a real (dare I say it) revulsion at the idea of even doing that and that it isn't a case of "No just no".

I mean, that's all well and good TS but here you are berating women for just suggesting that trans women should have their own category with "no discussions allowed" when the reality is the actual opposite, that trans women have just been allowed to compete against women with no discussion or "focus" groups about it and women are the ones being told to deal with it and shut the **** up about it or you're a transphobe. You keep accusing women of doing the **** that transwomen are actually doing

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's a very strong statement that "trans people" are a third separate gender that is neither male nor female. I know that a lot of people think that way; but I would hazard a guess that very few trans individuals think that way and I think the suggestion that they should just accept that as the "simple" solution with no further discussion is highly dismissive of the issues in a way that I just don't understand.

I understand it not being feasible for (especially) MtF transexuals to compete in female sports competitions but I don't understand, at all, the resistance to anyone properly exploring and discussing what is possible. |There's a lot of "NO! NEVER! We'll just do THIS and that's fine and they'll just have to accept that, end of." and again, always with these discussions I'm left wondering ... why? Why does it have to be "as simple as ..."? Why are we not saying "Yeah this doesn't really work, it would probably be a good idea if the various sporting organisations set up focus groups to figure out how to make each sport inclusive and fair at the same time". Like... the idea that we've explored all of the possibilities properly and thoroughly is just not true... but there seems to be a real (dare I say it) revulsion at the idea of even doing that and that it isn't a case of "No just no".

That is not what I am saying at all and you know it I am not talking about gender, I am talking about categories in sport as you well know, of which there are many already, so this would be just creating another CATEGORY, not another gender entirely

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Right but I see a lot of people agreeing about the problem, with very little willingness to talk about any potential solution to that problem. Which is odd and why I often come away from these topics feeling like it's just a flood of dogma.

Unless there's enough trans athletes to justify their own events then there's little to be done until there is.

It's not fair for MtF trans people to compete with cis women, you can't edge out female athletes out of their sport and career for not being born a male.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

BIB - Totally wrong, transwomen in sport are unwilling to engage unless you agree with them on it. Rachel McKinnon for example (the trans cyclist who Martina Navratoliva had the initial back and forth with) refused to debate the issue on her recent radio appearance so the radio station canceled the opposing debater

OK well when I say "no one" seems willing, I should clarify that I mean it seems (to me) that very few people on either "side" seem willing, not that literally no one has tried.

Originally Posted by Marsh.

It's no more "othering" than having male and female categories. It's pretty simple but people are just fearful of causing offence when really there's nothing offensive about it.

Hmmmm OK but being honest, I still can't get my head around this being anything other than "Male / Female / Miscellaneous" categorisation and when it comes to gender issues that seems like the very crux of "othering". I'm not trans though so I can't claim to know, I'm only trying my best to empathise with both sides, in stating that no... MtF transexuals probably shouldn't be allowed to compete with women but I uderstand why that sucks for them and serves as a constant reminder that they are "other".

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's not fair for MtF trans people to compete with cis women, you can't edge out female athletes out of their sport and career for not being born a male.

I mean I don't know how many times I can realistically repeat that I agree with this, I'm starting to worry that I'm in a fugue state and haven't literally said it 10+ times.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

OK well when I say "no one" seems willing, I should clarify that I mean it seems (to me) that very few people on either "side" seem willing, not that literally no one has tried.



Hmmmm OK but being honest, I still can't get my head around this being anything other than "Male / Female / Miscellaneous" categorisation and when it comes to gender issues that seems like the very crux of "othering". I'm not trans though so I can't claim to know, I'm only trying my best to empathise with both sides, in stating that no... MtF transexuals probably shouldn't be allowed to compete with women but I uderstand why that sucks for them and serves as a constant reminder that they are "other".



I mean I don't know how many times I can realistically repeat that I agree with this, I'm starting to worry that I'm in a fugue state and haven't literally said it 10+ times.

It does suck for them unfortunately. Hopefully not forever.

But a difference must be made between someone being discriminated against and being excluded from sport because of it. And the very nature of their transition creating an unfair advantage or disadvantage.

I mean, apparently they even have events for people who have had transplants. That's not discrimination either.

The fact is competitive sports is all about the physical similarities and differences and giving everyone the equal playing field to compete. To act like this is the sports clubs just refusing to include transpeople is ridiculous. People are split into all manner of categories and events to make the competition fair. Transpeople shouldn't be exempt.

They ARE and do become their preferred gender, but physically they ARE and always will be different to those who were born that gender. It's just a fact. One India Willoughby points out herself.

[Livia]

Me agreeing with Dezzy....!

[Northern Monkey]

Well i mean other than it being ridiculously unfair the main concern i think should be safety.Safety should trump hurty feelz.
Womens safety is put at risk in team sports and combat sports(i can’t even believe mtf were allowed to get in the ring with biological females ever).

It can’t just carry on until a woman is seriously injured or killed.

The only possible solution imo is seperate categories.I can’t possibly think of a better solution.