[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I have sympathy with the body autonomy argument, but this point, whilst it makes sense to you or I, doesn't translate in the real world. We have an increasing number of people who trust their gut or a celebrity saying their child looked at a dr for 1 minute and now has autism.

I don't really look at it as either a threat or an insult, but merely a requirement to enter public education. We've seen diseases on the verge of being wiped off the planet, suddenly enjoying a resurgence because of parents that won't vaccinate.

It's also not a specific section of the population; we have religious parents refusing it for religious reasons, we have crystal waving hippie lefties that aren't vaccinating, and we have Jenny McCarthy believing parents. It's too widespread, and it unnecessarily endangers the lives of children that can't vaccinate.

Right but attempting to increase vaccination rates through shaming (calling people stupid / trying to tell them that their kids will die) or force (the threat of banning children from public spaces) simply won't work on any of those groups. It'll compound the problem by pushing those already inclined to retreat into sub-communities completely removed from the entire conversation and in 2 or 3 generations you'll have even lower vax rates. Honestly I understand the temptation to try to use force, I just know it won't work, and while you can ban unvaccinated kids from schools, you can't ban them from parks, or soft play areas, or any other public space, so it doesn't really matter.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Right but attempting to increase vaccination rates through shaming (calling people stupid / trying to tell them that their kids will die) or force (the threat of banning children from public spaces) simply won't work on any of those groups. It'll compound the problem by pushing those already inclined to retreat into sub-communities completely removed from the entire conversation and in 2 or 3 generations you'll have even lower vax rates. Honestly I understand the temptation to try to use force, I just know it won't work, and while you can ban unvaccinated kids from schools, you can't ban them from parks, or soft play areas, or any other public space, so it doesn't really matter.

I'm not calling anyone stupid or threatening them, I just advocate having vaccination as an entry requirement if you want your child to attend school. We can't eradicate all risk from every life and never will, but I disagree with because we can't ban them from everywhere then it's pointless trying to protect them when we can.

Anti-vax movements are increasing in popularity already, and the problem with conspiracy theorists, is evidence and facts are used to prove to them that it's just more of a conspiracy, rather than an attempt to help them help their children.

Maybe requiring those children to be vaccinated will help them see in a generation or two, that actually they're not giving our children autism afterall, whereas allowing this issue to go on unaddressed is currently having the opposite effect.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Nonsense "Reddit-rhetoric" like this is only going to compound that subset of people's beliefs and make them close ranks and gain following, ultimately reducing overall vaccination rates. You don't convince people with threats and insults.

If your actual goal is increasing vaccination rates - and not just venting frustration - then you're being part of the problem, not the solution.

Accurate, honest, respectful education will increase vaccination rates. Force and mocking will not. People have been trying this "angry dad" / "shame the parents" routine with it for years if not decades. Rates are still falling. It doesn't work. Grow up.

More fool you for trying to reason with stupidity, anti-vaxxers are narcissists that think they can overpower science with essential oils and healing crystals. They do not listen to reason or common sense because they possess neither and their actions are bringing back diseases and illnesses we had all but gotten rid of. Talking to them is like trying to convince a gun nut to see the issue with AR-15s being sold in US supermarkets, they will never listen and I won't waste my time on morons telling them any different. Their actions endanger vulnerable people and all you are doing is empowering them by offering their insane viewpoints an out.

Do not patronise me and tell me to grow up when you're going to be pulling splinters out of your arse for sitting on the fence for a pretty black or white issue. Science vs Stupidity, that is what this boils down to and your tin foil what ifs do nothing but create more reasons for those idiots to stick their heads in the sand.

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

More fool you for trying to reason with stupidity, anti-vaxxers are narcissists that think they can overpower science with essential oils and healing crystals. They do not listen to reason or common sense because they possess neither and their actions are bringing back diseases and illnesses we had all but gotten rid of. Talking to them is like trying to convince a gun nut to see the issue with AR-15s being sold in US supermarkets, they will never listen and I won't waste my time on morons telling them any different. Their actions endanger vulnerable people and all you are doing is empowering them by offering their insane viewpoints an out.

Do not patronise me and tell me to grow up when you're going to be pulling splinters out of your arse for sitting on the fence for a pretty black or white issue. Science vs Stupidity, that is what this boils down to and your tin foil what ifs do nothing but create more reasons for those idiots to stick their heads in the sand.

I completely agree, anti-vaccers thing they know more than people who are constantly saving lives. Vaccination should not be a choice, it should be mandatory.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

More fool you for trying to reason with stupidity, anti-vaxxers are narcissists that think they can overpower science with essential oils and healing crystals. They do not listen to reason or common sense because they possess neither and their actions are bringing back diseases and illnesses we had all but gotten rid of. Talking to them is like trying to convince a gun nut to see the issue with AR-15s being sold in US supermarkets, they will never listen and I won't waste my time on morons telling them any different. Their actions endanger vulnerable people and all you are doing is empowering them by offering their insane viewpoints an out.

Do not patronise me and tell me to grow up when you're going to be pulling splinters out of your arse for sitting on the fence for a pretty black or white issue. Science vs Stupidity, that is what this boils down to and your tin foil what ifs do nothing but create more reasons for those idiots to stick their heads in the sand.

It's not a black and white issue when what you're touting as "white" is the frankly utterly insane notion of allowing government-enforced medical procedures. I can only imagine the backflips you must be doing in your mind to advocate for this, based on being frustrated by anti-vaxxers. "Some people make dumb decisions so ... time to cancel the right to bodily autonomy I guess!"

You're also drawing completely false comparisons with things like gun laws. The idea that you can convince anti-vaxxers to vaccinate by screeching at them that being anti-vax is being "pro death" is more akin to the idea that you could convince someone to give up their handgun by repeatedly bellowing that it's secretly a nuclear bomb.

Debate using the facts or don't debate at all. Don't insist on your right to abandon them to boring internet-parrot-rhetoric because it's an issue that you find frustrating.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not a black and white issue when what you're touting as "white" is the frankly utterly insane notion of allowing government-enforced medical procedures. I can only imagine the backflips you must be doing in your mind to advocate for this, based on being frustrated by anti-vaxxers. "Some people make dumb decisions so ... time to cancel the right to bodily autonomy I guess!"

You're also drawing completely false comparisons with things like gun laws. The idea that you can convince anti-vaxxers to vaccinate by screeching at them that being anti-vax is being "pro death" is more akin to the idea that you could convince someone to give up their handgun by repeatedly bellowing that it's secretly a nuclear bomb.

Debate using the facts or don't debate at all. Don't insist on your right to abandon them to boring internet-parrot-rhetoric because it's an issue that you find frustrating.

Be less of a hypocrite, TS. You've been preaching about how we need to handle anti-vaxxers with kid gloves and be respectful to them but you've been screeching at me telling me to grow up because my views upset you. Come speak to me when you've sorted out your hypocrisy because you can't be all 'we need to reason and treat anti-vaxxers with kindness!' in one breath and then be patronising as **** to someone you disagree with. That **** won't fly with me and that hypocrisy will completely upend everything you're saying here.

[LaLaLand]

Good!

[joeysteele]

If this is really a planned policy.

On balance I'd be against it.

I haven't any children so I'd bow more to the views of parents on this issue.
However education is vital and compulsory.
So in my view a child's education should be the dominating factor.

[user104658]

There's a YouTube video around somewhere of 3 anti-vaxxers talking to three experts... two of the experts go down the usual internet-age hysteria route, screeching at them like they're feeding their kids plague rats for dinner. The conversation goes absolutely nowhere.

ONE doctor conceeds that vaccines carry small risks, as any medical procedure does, and takes the time to explain the statistics and that the possible vaccine side effects are largely identical to the possible complications of the illnesses - and much rarer - and they actually engage in conversation with him.

It's EXTREMELY illustrative of the situation in my opinion. I haven't been able to find the damn thing though.

[user104658]

If anyone's interested, here's a very simple pro-vax argument that relies on the real figures and not the lies.

The main fear that anti-vax people have, is brain injury caused by encephalitis. Encephalitis IS a possible vaccine side effect, at a rate of roughly 1 in 130000.

Encephalitis is also a possible side effect of measles, at a rate of around 1 in 600.

In other words, a child is 200x more likely to get "the scariest side effect" from measles than they are from the MMR.

People don't bother to explain that though, they're happier just saying "reeeeeee if your child gets measles their head will fall off, so you must hate them and be pro-death, get out of our schools reee"

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

If anyone's interested, here's a very simple pro-vax argument that relies on the real figures and not the lies.

The main fear that anti-vax people have, is brain injury caused by encephalitis. Encephalitis IS a possible vaccine side effect, at a rate of roughly 1 in 130000.

Encephalitis is also a possible side effect of measles, at a rate of around 1 in 600.

In other words, a child is 200x more likely to get "the scariest side effect" from measles than they are from the MMR.

People don't bother to explain that though, they're happier just saying "reeeeeee if your child gets measles their head will fall off, so you must hate them and be pro-death, get out of our schools reee"

Nothing to add really. But its very rare for me to agree with you much..but on this every word you have typed..I agree with.

[Vicky.]

The main fear I hear from parents (mind, sample size is very small..) is the link with vaccination and autism. And no amount of showing them that Wakefield was an a fraud will get them to see reason.

Did he go to prison? He ****ing should have as he is responsible for a LOT of this.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The main fear I hear from parents (mind, sample size is very small..) is the link with vaccination and autism. And no amount of showing them that Wakefield was an a fraud will get them to see reason.

Did he go to prison? He ****ing should have as he is responsible for a LOT of this.

To me, the anti-vaxx movement is just another example of how humanity is becoming wilfully dumb to facts. We live in an age where people will believe fairy tales they want to believe are true over science, where people think facts can be overcome with belief and I hate it. I hate how we're sliding back through wilful ignorance.

I will never tolerate an anti-vaxx viewpoint or anything that even slightly validates it because the only way this world will continue spinning is if people drop the fantasy worlds they live in and rejoin reality. The anti-vaxx movement is a testament to stupidity and an insult to all the sacrifices and efforts of people that all but eradicated these illnesses that are coming back.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

To me, the anti-vaxx movement is just another example of how humanity is becoming wilfully dumb to facts. We live in an age where people will believe fairy tales they want to believe are true over science, where people think facts can be overcome with belief and I hate it. I hate how we're sliding back through wilful ignorance.

I will never tolerate an anti-vaxx viewpoint or anything that even slightly validates it because the only way this world will continue spinning is if people drop the fantasy worlds they live in and rejoin reality. The anti-vaxx movement is a testament to stupidity and an insult to all the sacrifices and efforts of people that all but eradicated these illnesses that are coming back.

Yeah agree with all this too tbh,

I don't quite understand why some are willing to overlook everything else, and cling on to one study by Wakefield..

[Ramsay]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yeah agree with all this too tbh,

I don't quite understand why some are willing to overlook everything else, and cling on to one study by Wakefield..

Dunning Kruger Effect. Usually parents that never did well academically who now want to appear smarter than they are.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The main fear I hear from parents (mind, sample size is very small..) is the link with vaccination and autism. And no amount of showing them that Wakefield was an a fraud will get them to see reason.

Did he go to prison? He ****ing should have as he is responsible for a LOT of this.

The problem is that vaccine-related encephalitis can cause permanent brain injury that can manifest as learning disability, and that often gets "lumped in" with autism (even though it is NOT autism). So people see "evidence" of "something that looks a bit like autism" resulting from vaccine injury and assume that Wakefield must have been right all along.

Of course, we're supposed to lie and pretend that LD can't be a result of vaccination because that's how we'll convince people to vaccinate, and telling the truth "just gives anti-vaxxers ammo". Apparently.

[arista]

From The Conservative Conference in Manchester
The Health Secretary has said he consulting
with the NHS Specialists on how to do a ban...........................

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

From The Conservative Conference in Manchester
The Health Secretary has said he consulting
with the NHS Specialists on how to do a ban...........................

I think a ban on a child going to school is wrong myself.

However I still would bow to the views of Parents.
Reading the posts here are really interesting.

Plus, I commend Matt Hancock for seeming to do a proper consultation process.
It will be interesting too, to hear his conclusions.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I think a ban on a child going to school is wrong myself.

I don't really understand how its legal. Given its a legal requirement for children to have an education..

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't really understand how its legal. Given its a legal requirement for children to have an education..

Vicky, in the post brexit world I'm not sure what's going to be legal anymore.

However, I haven't children so I think Parents are the key on all child matters.
I agree if a child has to educated then I don't see a present legal way round this myself.

I mean also, how many children are likely not vaccinated anyway?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I mean also, how many children are likely not vaccinated anyway?

I would think the vast majority of kids are vaccinated.

I think theres a significant minority that aren't though, and given online presence is growing, and with it the group of people who seem to get their news from social media and the likes (part of the reason for the brexit vote I think, given you mentioned it ) the amount of people who chose not to vaccinate based on internet scare stories will be growing too.

I think most parents will fall inbetween the 'you are literally killing thousands of people by not vaccinating!!!!!1' and 'vaccinating my child will cause instant death, I read it on facebook so its gospel' types. And luckily, I reckon the middle ground group will mainly all go for vaccinating based on rational risk analysis..but it is quite worrying that the social media news group is growing.

Probably makes me fall a litte closer to 'omg, murderer' type group for even talking about other parents in this..dismissive way. It doesn't really help and will never convince others to go for vaccination if they do believe all the scare stories. Mind, I honestly don't think that any rational speech would affect them or make them stop catastrophizing to be quite honest.

I don't know what the answer is really. But...this does not do it for me, for the main reason of..you cannot say education is a legal requirement, but then ban groups of children from recieving an education. Or shouldn't..IMO. But I can see where its coming from..at the same time. Odd topic for me, one of those where I half have splinters in my arse from the fencesitting!

[arista]

[Ammi]

...the compulsory vaccinations for school children is something being considered, something that’s being discussed as a possible proposal...but it very much has complications also..if and when it’s ever ‘confirmed’...which is what the thread title suggests, that the Health Secretary has confirmed the ban...?...very lazy posting, sir...

[arista]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...the compulsory vaccinations for school children is something being considered, something that’s being discussed as a possible proposal...but it very much has complications also..if and when it’s ever ‘confirmed’...which is what the thread title suggests, that the Health Secretary has confirmed the ban...?...very lazy posting, sir...

Corrected
Confirms - removed.

Until it is.

[arista]

LBC Live
With James
has Banned any non- vaccinated kid Parent
from Phoning his Live debate on it.
30mins left /

Good On Him.

Ammi it may be hard to enforce
but its now got the whole nation Backing this Ban.