[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by James

I can't believe so many people are cheer leading for the UK to be broken up.

It's like Remainers are thinking 'we didn't get what we wanted with Brexit so we might as well trash the country'.

Completely wrong.

I'm for equality, Brexiters are picking and choosing what's considered democratic based on their own preferences. It's utterly hypocritical for a brexiter to deny Scotland a referendum when I remember back in 2016, on the day of the vote when things didn't look good for Brexit, that brexiters were already lining up their excuses and accusations, plans for another vote.

The landscape has changed since the last indyref. Scotland voted to remain, and they've voted heavily in favour of the SNP whose whole stance in independence. The EU was a big part of why the last Indyref failed and I think a lot of people that voted against leaving the UK would vote for it now.

We can't force Scotland to stay with us if they don't want to and they deserve to have the choice of facing Brexit with us or going their own way.

Trying to paint that as spite on the part of remainers is just plain dishonest.

[James]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Completely wrong.

I'm for equality, Brexiters are picking and choosing what's considered democratic based on their own preferences. It's utterly hypocritical for a brexiter to deny Scotland a referendum when I remember back in 2016, on the day of the vote when things didn't look good for Brexit, that brexiters were already lining up their excuses and accusations, plans for another vote.

The landscape has changed since the last indyref. Scotland voted to remain, and they've voted heavily in favour of the SNP whose whole stance in independence. The EU was a big part of why the last Indyref failed and I think a lot of people that voted against leaving the UK would vote for it now.

We can't force Scotland to stay with us if they don't want to and they deserve to have the choice of facing Brexit with us or going their own way.

Trying to paint that as spite on the part of remainers is just plain dishonest.

Well, I am Scottish and I don't want another referendum because I think independence would be a very bad idea - a historic mistake, and also how bitter and divisive another campaign would be.

I never wanted another EU referendum (after 2016) either because I recognised how entrenched people's views had become, and how much worse another referendum would be.

Polls here show that most people don't want independence, and the SNP don't get overwhelming support - they get in the 40% range in elections now - and many people don't like them.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by James

Polls here show that most people don't want independence, and the SNP don't get overwhelming support - they get in the 40% range in elections now - and many people don't like them.

45% in the last GE and an 8% increase over 2017, and there's no reason to assume that only SNP voters would vote for independence. Stop trying to mislead with fudged figures .

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

45% in the last GE and an 8% increase over 2017, and there's no reason to assume that only SNP voters would vote for independence. Stop trying to mislead with fudged figures .

An very similar percent as the first indyref (45 for 55 against iirc?)

If you are judging by the figures of the latest GE then it points to Scotland still not wanting independence.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by James

Well, I am Scottish and I don't want another referendum because I think independence would be a very bad idea - a historic mistake, and also how bitter and divisive another campaign would be.

I never wanted another EU referendum (after 2016) either because I recognised how entrenched people's views had become, and how much worse another referendum would be.

Polls here show that most people don't want independence, and the SNP don't get overwhelming support - they get in the 40% range in elections now - and many people don't like them.

If enough people are demanding a vote then the government must listen, it is the democratic way of things. As TS has said, your stats aren't exactly infallible, the SNP's hold has increased with every election in the past few years and there's no reason to believe that their hold will get weaker since people aren't likely to vote for the Tories and Labour's in disarray. With Labour in the state it's in, SNP's majority in Scotland will likely only increase.

A brexiter like Boris denying Scotland a referendum is nothing short of high hypocrisy.

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

If enough people are demanding a vote then the government must listen, it is the democratic way of things. As TS has said, your stats aren't exactly infallible, the SNP's hold has increased with every election in the past few years and there's no reason to believe that their hold will get weaker since people aren't likely to vote for the Tories and Labour's in disarray. With Labour in the state it's in, SNP's majority in Scotland will likely only increase.

A brexiter like Boris denying Scotland a referendum is nothing short of high hypocrisy.

Disregarding the vote from the first referendum isn't exactly democratic either though.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by James

I can't believe so many people are cheer leading for the UK to be broken up.

It's like Remainers are thinking 'we didn't get what we wanted with Brexit so we might as well trash the country'.

Well what's the difference they are both unions of countries...not country.
This is the issue nobody sees the other countries in Britain as deserving of a voice.

It's hypocritical to suggest we leave one union to assert our independence while at the same time denying another that right.

[Kizzy]

If the circumstances were the same as in indy ref 1 I would agree to a definate no. But they are not, they are being torn away from the European union , with all their rights, protection, funding, laws and trade for what?...

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

If the circumstances were the same as in indy ref 1 I would agree to a definate no. But they are not, they are being torn away from the European union , with all their rights, protection, funding, laws and trade for what?...

You are discussing scotland as a whole...sorry, but scotland just ain't like that.

No matter what the snp won in the election scotland is still very divided...so NO...another referendum is not just pointless but also unjust and undemocratic.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by parmnion

You are discussing scotland as a whole...sorry, but scotland just ain't like that.

No matter what the snp won in the election scotland is still very divided...so NO...another referendum is not just pointless but also unjust and undemocratic.

Just like England then?..

Again the argument for another ref would be based on the result of the EU ref and warranted on that principle for me.

[Beso]

Such politeness for the management....why can't it be like this all the time?

[user104658]

For what it's worth I strongly suspect another referendum would yield more or less exactly the same result as the first one if held right now. Holding one before the full effects of Brexit become apparent is not sensible. If Brexit is a disaster, the voters should know that before deciding on independence. In the unrealistic even that Brexit is actually an economic success for the rUK, then unfortunately I feel that independence with rUK outside a common market is probably a mistake. Realistically, trade between Scotland and England is always going to be higher, and it may be more sensible to seek DevoMax (full devolution of taxation, benefits and social care - THESE are the important factors) over full indy.

On the thread topic though, the letter to BoJo is a formality and they will obviously have fully expected a "no" from Westminster, it's just something they legally had to do before pushing other avenues.

[arista]

She is Live now
SNP Conference.

her Indy2 will be delayed again
because of Covid.


Her date to start the process, the End of 2023
Subject to Change

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-59334883

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

That is incorrect, it was Alex Salmond who a few days before the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, then-First Minister said that he felt the vote was a “once in a generation opportunity”. He said this in a TV interview, it was not policy or part of the ref, it was his own feeling.


This constantly gets dredged up as if this was part of the vote, it wasnt.


Before the ref equally, Nicola Sturgeon said that a significant and material change in circumstances – i.e. Britain voting to leave the EU – would justify a second ballot.

I dont see that comment being brought up by the PM, I wonder why?

Out of curiosity LT, what would you vote if you did get another referendum?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

i would decide on the basis of what was on offer at the time

No leaning either way?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

im a fair man so i would assess at the time and make my decision

Pleading the 5th?

[Cherie]

The problem with offering another referendum is that we all know if the result didn't differ from the last one, it wouldn't take that long before yet another one would be requested and on it would go...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

The problem with offering another referendum is that we all know if the result didn't differ from the last one, it wouldn't take that long before yet another one would be requested and on it would go...

True but I think there's a case to be made this time because of Brexit and because EU membership was used the last time as a reason to stay within the UK, wasn't it?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

True but I think there's a case to be made this time because of Brexit and because EU membership was used the last time as a reason to stay within the UK, wasn't it?

Well I would agree, but then its like the UK versus the EU, did they vote only for the good bits of staying in the UK? and my point is if it is the same result again, this will come up again and again.. I am all for them going btw