[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

That's a great point, as you know we only had a referendum here on abortion a few years ago, and the vast majority of people campaigning against it were men and the only ones I spoke to in real about it, I knew for a fact were the ones who had no idea what it took to raise a child. It's weird because when I was younger I was against abortion, it wasn't until I actually had a child myself and really understood in real terms what it all entailed did I switch very firmly to the pro-choice side

I agree with all that, the only thing I will add is that life does not begin at birth anyone who has felt a child kicking in the womb will know this , and that is why there is quite rightly a cap at 24 weeks

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I agree with all that, the only thing I will add is that life does not begin at birth anyone who has felt a child kicking in the womb will know this , and that is why there is quite rightly a cap at 24 weeks

Beyond 24 weeks I think the limitation should quite strictly be to either the child having severe, heavily life-limiting/painful disabilities or a risk to the mother's physical health in continuing the pregnancy/birth.

Of course that needs to go hand-in-hand with quick, free access to early stage abortions with no "waiting lists".

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I agree with all that, the only thing I will add is that life does not begin at birth anyone who has felt a child kicking in the womb will know this , and that is why there is quite rightly a cap at 24 weeks

Yes I agree 100%

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

The pro-life people are not pro-life, they are pro-control because they only give a **** about limiting choice by feigning concern for a bunch of cells, when the actual baby comes along, they don't give a **** and they certainly don't give a **** about black pregnancies and mothers or their children.

Black lives matter and life begins at birth.

This really.

[DouglasS]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

The pro-life people are not pro-life, they are pro-control because they only give a **** about limiting choice by feigning concern for a bunch of cells, when the actual baby comes along, they don't give a **** and they certainly don't give a **** about black pregnancies and mothers or their children.

Black lives matter and life begins at birth.

Life doesn’t begin at birth. Are you saying people should be able to abort at 38weeks old when the foetus is fully developed because it’s not born yet ? That is just extremely cruel and just crazy to me.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by DouglasS

Life doesn’t begin at birth. Are you saying people should be able to abort at 38weeks old when the foetus is fully developed because it’s not born yet ? That is just extremely cruel and just crazy to me.

No one aborts fetuses at 38 weeks. You can only abort for medical reasons beyond 24 weeks.

Life does begin at birth, a fetus until it's ready to be born or delivered, cannot support it's own existence outside of the womb. For pretty much the entirety of the period when someone can choose to have an abortion, the fetus is just an bunch of cells and nothing more.

Your example just doesn't happen in the real world. No one can just decide to go full term and have an abortion.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Life does begin at birth, a fetus until it's ready to be born or delivered, cannot support it's own existence outside of the womb.

Hmmm well that's not really true, a fetus can survive outside the womb from 22 weeks (just past the half way mark) and has a chance of survival without mechanical incubation from 26 weeks. A pretty good chance from 30 weeks. Full term being 38 - 42 weeks.

For pretty much the entirety of the period when someone can choose to have an abortion, the fetus is just an bunch of cells and nothing more.

This is also untrue beyond about 14 weeks, start of 2nd trimester... it's a recognisably-formed human at that point and has a "working" brain. I'm pro-choice but I don't see much point in telling pretty lies to make it more palateable... like meat eaters who are scared of knowing that their chicken nuggets used to cluck-cluck.

Not least because it means women end up getting a bit of a nasty shock when they have an abortion at 16 weeks and a fully formed (if small) baby comes out.

No need for anything but the facts .

[rusticgal]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Hmmm well that's not really true, a fetus can survive outside the womb from 22 weeks (just past the half way mark) and has a chance of survival without mechanical incubation from 26 weeks. A pretty good chance from 30 weeks. Full term being 38 - 42 weeks.



This is also untrue beyond about 14 weeks, start of 2nd trimester... it's a recognisably-formed human at that point and has a "working" brain. I'm pro-choice but I don't see much point in telling pretty lies to make it more palateable... like meat eaters who are scared of knowing that their chicken nuggets used to cluck-cluck.

Not least because it means women end up getting a bit of a nasty shock when they have an abortion at 16 weeks and a fully formed (if small) baby comes out.

No need for anything but the facts .

Correct. Which is why they won’t abort passed 24weeks.

[DouglasS]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Hmmm well that's not really true, a fetus can survive outside the womb from 22 weeks (just past the half way mark) and has a chance of survival without mechanical incubation from 26 weeks. A pretty good chance from 30 weeks. Full term being 38 - 42 weeks.



This is also untrue beyond about 14 weeks, start of 2nd trimester... it's a recognisably-formed human at that point and has a "working" brain. I'm pro-choice but I don't see much point in telling pretty lies to make it more palateable... like meat eaters who are scared of knowing that their chicken nuggets used to cluck-cluck.

Not least because it means women end up getting a bit of a nasty shock when they have an abortion at 16 weeks and a fully formed (if small) baby comes out.

No need for anything but the facts .

Exactly what I was coming to say

I have a biology degree and so it can be frustrating seeing people spread misinformation to fit their view

Abortion even at 24 weeks is crazy to me knowing that the foetus could survive in the real world at that point. I am also pro choice but only to a certain point and anything past 18-20 weeks i believe to be a little cruel and should only be aborted for extreme circumstances (if you don’t want the baby give it up for adoption)

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Hmmm well that's not really true, a fetus can survive outside the womb from 22 weeks (just past the half way mark) and has a chance of survival without mechanical incubation from 26 weeks. A pretty good chance from 30 weeks. Full term being 38 - 42 weeks.



This is also untrue beyond about 14 weeks, start of 2nd trimester... it's a recognisably-formed human at that point and has a "working" brain. I'm pro-choice but I don't see much point in telling pretty lies to make it more palateable... like meat eaters who are scared of knowing that their chicken nuggets used to cluck-cluck.

Not least because it means women end up getting a bit of a nasty shock when they have an abortion at 16 weeks and a fully formed (if small) baby comes out.

No need for anything but the facts .

Here's a fact for you, the vast majority of abortions tend to be done under 10 weeks, IE, in the first trimester when the fetus is just a bunch of cells which makes most of what you said pointless hair splitting for the sake of showing off.

Also, you misunderstood what I'm saying. Premature babies as early as you're saying cannot support their own existence without medical assistance, you can't just give birth to a 22 week old fetus and it'll be fine. A full term baby isn't going to die outside of the womb, a 22 week old fetus will die quickly without medical attention. Even being born three weeks prior to a due date can cause medical issues for the child so it's wrong to make out I'm lying to fit my agenda when you misunderstood what I was saying. Also most babies born at 22 weeks do not survive, it's rarer to survive at that age then it is to die so using that as an example to call me a liar is just plain incorrect.

Life begins at birth, whether it's an early birth or not but the truth is that a baby born during the time that abortion by choice is allowed simply won't survive in most cases.

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Hmmm well that's not really true, a fetus can survive outside the womb from 22 weeks (just past the half way mark) and has a chance of survival without mechanical incubation from 26 weeks. A pretty good chance from 30 weeks. Full term being 38 - 42 weeks.



This is also untrue beyond about 14 weeks, start of 2nd trimester... it's a recognisably-formed human at that point and has a "working" brain. I'm pro-choice but I don't see much point in telling pretty lies to make it more palateable... like meat eaters who are scared of knowing that their chicken nuggets used to cluck-cluck.

Not least because it means women end up getting a bit of a nasty shock when they have an abortion at 16 weeks and a fully formed (if small) baby comes out.

No need for anything but the facts .

Yes, google is great for finding facts.

[Liam-]

Pro-lifers aren’t pro-life, they’re pro-birth, when kids are born they’re on their own and they couldn’t care less, they want people in all situations to give birth, then they cut funds from all available sources of help to raise said kid, they’re hypocrites

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Pro-lifers aren’t pro-life, they’re pro-birth, when kids are born they’re on their own and they couldn’t care less, they want people in all situations to give birth, then they cut funds from all available sources of help to raise said kid, they’re hypocrites

I agree with that, I don't see how anyone can declare themselves "pro-life" and then happily oppose things like benefits to support children. No birth control is 100% effective so, really, anyone who is anti-abortion whilst simultaneously saying things like "If you can't afford kids, don't have them" is, more accurately, pro-abstinence.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Pro-lifers aren’t pro-life, they’re pro-birth, when kids are born they’re on their own and they couldn’t care less, they want people in all situations to give birth, then they cut funds from all available sources of help to raise said kid, they’re hypocrites

Yep and probably are the same ones who complain about kids being raised by single moms etc etc

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by parmnion

An interesting question.

Why wouldn't it?

[Liam-]

Ironically the majority of these pro-lifers are the ones now against being asked to wear a mask, because it’s their choice not to

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Ironically the majority of these pro-lifers are the ones now against being asked to wear a mask, because it’s their choice not to

You have no evidence for this blanket statement

[Tom4784]

To be fair, you can oppose abortion and still be pro-choice. A lot of people who are pro-choice probably would never want or have an abortion but they don't want to force their choices on anyone else.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

To be fair, you can oppose abortion and still be pro-choice. A lot of people who are pro-choice probably would never want or have an abortion but they don't want to force their choices on anyone else.

This is pretty much my position. I don't think people should have abortions, but I also don't think it's my business what other people get up to

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

This is pretty much my position. I don't think people should have abortions, but I also don't think it's my business what other people get up to

Also, the people who go on like some women use abortion as a form of contraception clearly have no idea what it's like to get an abortion. I haven't had one myself but know people who have, it's not a pleasant experience emotionally, mentally or physically

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Also, the people who go on like some women use abortion as a form of contraception clearly have no idea what it's like to get an abortion. I haven't had one myself but know people who have, it's not a pleasant experience emotionally, mentally or physically

I did know a girl at my school who had 6 before she turned 18. Needless to say though, she was a troubled girl and there were obviously other things going on there. She was also exclusively sleeping with guys in their 30's and 40's.

No one would just casually use it as a replacement for normal contraception.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I did know a girl at my school who had 6 before she turned 18. Needless to say though, she was a troubled girl and there were obviously other things going on there. She was also exclusively sleeping with guys in their 30's and 40's.

No one would just casually use it as a replacement for normal contraception.

That rings really red flag bells. Usually such behaviour suggests abuse, I bet if she'd have had six kids by the age of 18 in the modern times her parents would get a knock at their door...

[thesheriff443]

I think there is something very wrong in countries like Africa where year in year out they have kids only for them to die of lack of food water disease or aids.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

I think there is something very wrong in countries like Africa where year in year out they have kids only for them to die of lack of food water disease or aids.

I wonder what the problem is

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

I think there is something very wrong in countries like Africa where year in year out they have kids only for them to die of lack of food water disease or aids.

Omg, REALLY?