[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

The idea of turning your own child into some sort of social experiment is repugnant.

I think the idea of Gender Neutral parenting is pretty pointless, If the boy shows signs of wanting to play with dolls and such then support him but don't force it on him. I just think this parenting style is going to cause more problems down the line then it's going to solve.

The thought that raising a boy traditionally creates aggression is moronic, confusion causes aggression, hardship causes aggression and resentment creates aggression among other things. The boy's going to be confused as hell when he grows up and he'll possibly even resent his parents for raising him in that way. It's an idealistic and ultimately flawed way of raising a child.

Yes exactly, it's very bad and self indulgent parenting imo. I agree very much with what Smudgie said also, if you don't want a child to play with just "boy toys" etc because society tells you that's what they should be doing then give them all the different options and let them choose themselves. Don't blatantly separate the two and give them separate times etc, that's only enforcing the gender stereotypes

[Ninastar]

I love how these parents almost always want to go public with their stories. Perhaps it's to raise awareness... but I personally think otherwise. I've never been a fan of this. It's just so... pointless.

I don't think it is fair on the child. He was born a boy and if you don't want him to be 'damaged by stereotypes' then raise him to not give a damn about stereotypes. Let him wear clothes with pink, let him play with dolls, let him play dress up, but don't tell him he is a girl because he's not. Kids have no idea what girls toys/boys toys actually are until their about 4 onwards. I don't think it's fair for parents to tell their kids 'you can be a girl if you want to' when they it's physically impossible unless they actually get a sex change. I understand when older people believe they are stuck in the wrong body and that is fair enough, they can believe that if they like. But it is so wrong to convince and influence your child into thinking they can be more than one gender, or the gender of the opposite sex.

I am all for letting girls and boys playing with whatever toys they like. It's just toys. Girls playing with naked barbie dolls and boys playing with naked wrestling dolls? it's funny how those are meant to be the stereotypical 'straight kid toys' don't you think?

All I care about is children being praised for who they are, the way they were born and not raised as a social experiment. I just personally don't think it's fair. You can call me ignorant/small minded all you like, I don't give a damn. Kids shouldn't be made to change for the parents benefit.

[Z]

Yeah I agree with all three of you; I just think that the first few posts in this thread were just sort of rubbishing them as parents when I think they're doing a very admirable thing, just perhaps not doing it in the most effective way. I don't understand why they've separated it into boy time and girl time; surely just get him a mixture of traditionally boy/girl toys/clothes/whatever and leave him to make his mind up about what he wants to play with and wear. At any rate I think it's an interesting concept and at least it's not as ridiculous as the social experiment I came across in Germany of the little boy whose parents wanted to see how long hair would grow naturally so they had this ratty horrid pig tail growing at the back of his head but the rest of it kept short

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Zee

Yeah I agree with all three of you; I just think that the first few posts in this thread were just sort of rubbishing them as parents when I think they're doing a very admirable thing, just perhaps not doing it in the most effective way. I don't understand why they've separated it into boy time and girl time; surely just get him a mixture of traditionally boy/girl toys/clothes/whatever and leave him to make his mind up about what he wants to play with and wear. At any rate I think it's an interesting concept and at least it's not as ridiculous as the social experiment I came across in Germany of the little boy whose parents wanted to see how long hair would grow naturally so they had this ratty horrid pig tail growing at the back of his head but the rest of it kept short

I agree that the parents here have unwittingly made this into an issue by their very actions. They should have just let the child decide which toys he wanted to play with and what clothes he wanted to wear. most likely the same ones as the rest of the other little boys are wearing and playing with.

This type of social experimenting is well intentioned but at best wishful thinking at worst downright damaging to the child as he could stand out in his class or school playground and become the target for years of abuse. It could damage him emotionally and seriously impact on his relationship with his parents.

Like a lot of posters have said, just point him in the right gender direction but let him decide what he feels comfortable with.

I agree the idea of encouraging little boys to play with guns and soldiers and wargames etc... is unecessary and panders to Societies obsession with power and control.....let children decide what they want to play with and what they believe in ie No religious indoctrination . Teach them about ALL religions and again let them decide when they have reached an age where they can make an informed decision....

[Livia]

More woolly-headed liberal parents propelling their son toward an adolescence of counselling and therapy. Meet you all back here in, say, twelve years to see how this pans out.

Allowing a little boy to wear a dress is just odd. I mean, it's not like it's something that's happened naturally, his parents have bought the dress for him to wear. What a ridiculous society we've become.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Livia

More woolly-headed liberal parents propelling their son toward an adolescence of counselling and therapy. Meet you all back here in, say, twelve years to see how this pans out.

Allowing a little boy to wear a dress is just odd. I mean, it's not like it's something that's happened naturally, his parents have bought the dress for him to wear. What a ridiculous society we've become.

But then boys and girls being interested in Barbie/Action Men, or wanting to wear dresses and makeup or jeans and baseball caps aren't naturally acquired tastes either, they are socialised. I'm not disagreeing with people arguing that the way these parents are going about this is wrong, they've misunderstood the concept of gender neutral parenting, but children don't 'naturally' want to or not want to wear dresses, they learn the behaviours of their peers, the media and what their parents teach them.

If you were to place a one year old child in a white room with a dress and a pair of jeans, and a dolls house with Barbies and Action Men and toy cars in two separate piles, and left them to walk up to one to dress up in/play with - taking the hypothetical assumption that they haven't ever interacted with other people their age or had any sort of guidance from their parents or the media - the chances of them going to either pile is a completely 50/50 toss up, there isn't any 'natural' instinct whatsoever - it is a toss of a coin. You put a child that's interacted with other children of a similar age, had media messages fed to them and had guidance from their parents, and they will probably go to the pile that fits the gender stereotypes they've been taught. It isn't natural though, it's learned behaviour.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jack_

But then boys and girls being interested in Barbie/Action Men, or wanting to wear dresses and makeup or jeans and baseball caps aren't naturally acquired tastes either, they are socialised. I'm not disagreeing with people arguing that the way these parents are going about this is wrong, they've misunderstood the concept of gender neutral parenting, but children don't 'naturally' want to or not want to wear dresses, they learn the behaviours of their peers, the media and what their parents teach them.

If you were to place a one year old child in a white room with a dress and a pair of jeans, and a dolls house with Barbies and Action Men and toy cars in two separate piles, and left them to walk up to one to dress up in/play with - taking the hypothetical assumption that they haven't ever interacted with other people their age or had any sort of guidance from their parents or the media - the chances of them going to either pile is a completely 50/50 toss up, there isn't any 'natural' instinct whatsoever - it is a toss of a coin. You put a child that's interacted with other children of a similar age, had media messages fed to them and had guidance from their parents, and they will probably go to the pile that fits the gender stereotypes they've been taught. It isn't natural though, it's learned behaviour.

I'm not sure that all gender interaction and preference is learned, so what would or wouldn't happen is purely conjecture.

While I understand having gender-neutral toys, dressing your child as a boy in the morning and a girl in the afternoon is bonkers. He is a boy. No amount of pink dresses is going to change that and I'm not sure it's helping him now, or that it will help him in the future.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm not sure that all gender interaction and preference is learned, so what would or wouldn't happen is purely conjecture.

While I understand having gender-neutral toys, dressing your child as a boy in the morning and a girl in the afternoon is bonkers. He is a boy. No amount of pink dresses is going to change that and I'm not sure it's helping him now, or that it will help him in the future.

this is all built around the insane notion that all maleness is evil and we must brainwash it out of our boys. this is the revisionist bull**** history that radical feminist has taught us and BBC are leading the way.

[lostalex]

I agree with all of the people questioning the motives of the parents going public about this. Why would any parent call the Daily Mail to tell them that their son wears dresses? There definitely seems to be alterior motives here.

remember the Balloon Boy from a few years ago? turned out the father was just a fame *****.

[Vicky.]

Im all for not having 'girls' toys and 'boys' toys and stuff lke that, but to actively change your kids clothes to a dress halfway through the day and get him to play with dolls instead of cars as he had played with cars on the morning is taking the piss a bit and will just confuse the child. Seems to be a ****ing experiment tbh

[the truth]

its half a good idea to allow kids different toys and so on... I dont see why a boy cant play with a doll or a girl cant play with a cowboy etc etc but to put a one year old boy in dresses and paint his nails and womens shoes is insane and will confuse the heck out of the poor lad. he shouldnt be used as a guinea pig by a radical feminist who clearly has issues with men and stereotypes them and puts them in a box. the exact thing she is preaching against. Im more worried too if neither parents works, a child needs to have positive role models and to see at least one of them earn a living is very good for his development.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by the truth

its half a good idea to allow kids different toys and so on... I dont see why a boy cant play with a doll or a girl cant play with a cowboy etc etc but to put a one year old boy in dresses and paint his nails and womens shoes is insane and will confuse the heck out of the poor lad. he shouldnt be used as a guinea pig by a radical feminist who clearly has issues with men and stereotypes them and puts them in a box. the exact thing she is preaching against. Im more worried too if neither parents works, a child needs to have positive role models and to see at least one of them earn a living is very good for his development.

..the article says that his father has the more 'feminist' views than his mum...

The decision was fully supported by Martin, an unemployed courier. ‘I think my husband is more of a feminist than I am,’ she says. ‘His biggest concern about the whole thing is usually “does Max have the right shoes to go with that dress!”’

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..the article says that his father has the more 'feminist' views than his mum...

The decision was fully supported by Martin, an unemployed courier. ‘I think my husband is more of a feminist than I am,’ she says. ‘His biggest concern about the whole thing is usually “does Max have the right shoes to go with that dress!”’

I know, clearly the father is a complete and utter idiot.

[Vicky.]

The parents are just experimenting on this poor child who is extremely likely to grow up very confused about why he is a boy half of the day and a girl the other half, they have no idea what gender neutral parenting really is, and are using the kid for publicity. As such, I think they are utter arseholes.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The parents are just experimenting on this poor child who is extremely likely to grow up very confused about why he is a boy half of the day and a girl the other half, they have no idea what gender neutral parenting really is, and are using the kid for publicity. As such, I think they are utter arseholes.

Bang On Right Vicky

[Crimson Dynamo]

Life is hard enough without your parents running experiments on yo ass

[lostalex]

Livia, may I ask you a question?

Do you believe that women are naturally submissive to men, and that women are naturally more inclined to be caregivers as opposed to leaders?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Livia, may I ask you a question?

Do you believe that women are naturally submissive to men, and that women are naturally more inclined to be caregivers as opposed to leaders?

do you?

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by the truth

do you?

I am asking the question, so i can't taint the question with my own opinions, i'll give my opinion after she answers

But i'd also be interested in knowing your answer to that question "the truth", feel free to answer it if you wish. though i'm pretty sure i already know your opinion../.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by lostalex

I am asking the question, so i can't taint the question with my own opinions, i'll give my opinion after she answers

But i'd also be interested in knowing your answer to that question "the truth", feel free to answer it if you wish. though i'm pretty sure i already know your opinion../.

My answer is no to both questions

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by the truth

My answer is no to both questions

oh, that's surprising. are you just saying that in an ironic politically correct way? or do you really mean it?

[James]

These stories always remind me of the sad and infamous case in Canada where a boy was raised as a girl, on the advice of a psychologist who believed gender identity was learned, but the boy never identified as female. He had a sad life and eventually killed himself.

There was a TV documentary shown about it a while ago. There is more about it here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

[the truth]

Originally Posted by James

These stories always remind me of the sad and infamous case in Canada where a boy was raised as a girl, on the advice of a psychologist who believed gender identity was learned, but the boy never identified as female. He had a sad life and eventually killed himself.

There was a TV documentary shown about it a while ago. There is more about it here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

fascinating James, thanks for that

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by James

These stories always remind me of the sad and infamous case in Canada where a boy was raised as a girl, on the advice of a psychologist who believed gender identity was learned, but the boy never identified as female. He had a sad life and eventually killed himself.

There was a TV documentary shown about it a while ago. There is more about it here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Oh wow, I never heard of that. I just don't understand how people can use their kids to "experiment" like that, I really don't see what the problem with traditional parenting is. If you don't want your kids to be aggressive or sexist just teach them not to be by not being like that yourself, lead by example. Don't over complicate things by doing all this crazy s**t

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Oh wow, I never heard of that. I just don't understand how people can use their kids to "experiment" like that, I really don't see what the problem with traditional parenting is. If you don't want your kids to be aggressive or sexist just teach them not to be by not being like that yourself, lead by example. Don't over complicate things by doing all this crazy s**t

agreed. but this nonsense is the result of the brainless drivel of radical feminism going unitellectually unchallenged in the UK for decades. this is where the liberal radical feminist drivel leads us