[Livia]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

You shouldn't feel like that Livia, you can tell us with much more balance and knowledge of fact, what the real situation is other than the biased ones one way or the other.

You have always said in posts past and present that Israel does not do all things right or even well at times but as you point out, there is more to the situation than what is just on the surface.

I myself have taken on board and learned loads as to this issue from your posts and your presentation of the issues.
I really thank you and respect you for all that enlightenment too.

You're a gent, Joeysteele. x

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Sorry Livia , with respect please do even try and defend the indefensible....

This is supposed to be a debate. I'm not defending all the actions of the Israeli government, but I should be able to say my piece as I see it without being asked not to.

Originally Posted by Nedusa

And if you have been to Israel and have seen it close up, then shame on you for not being honest enough to condemn the regime without reservation.

Shame on me? For speaking about another side to the argument? Because there IS another side. But a discussion about Israel is not possible, sadly.

[Livia]

I'm not going to continue a discussion, as I said... but I just had to say, great post MTVN.

[MTVN]

Ah I completely understand why you wouldn't want to post in this thread Livia but just to echo what Joey said I do really appreciate your view - even if we don't always agree - and the knowledge you bring to this subject. I think the worst thing anyone can do is to try and make out that they alone completely understand the situation when its as complex as it is

[Nedusa]

Having read the last few Posts this morning I think this is a difficult subject to debate and a complicated one at that.

Passions can be aroused on both sides of the debate which can quickly turn into personal jibes (my apologies if any of my posts yesterday fell into this category).

I think threads on this particular topic do nobody any favours if I'm honest.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Having read the last few Posts this morning I think this is a difficult subject to debate and a complicated one at that.

Passions can be aroused on both sides of the debate which can quickly turn into personal jibes (my apologies if any of my posts yesterday fell into this category).

I think threads on this particular topic do nobody any favours if I'm honest.

trouble is no one is allowed to really debate it in mainstream media. theyre simply too scared of being labelled anti semitic

[empire]

A word of warning, if the little state dare tried, Russia will fire a couple of nukes at them, and it is bye bye to the world,

[arista]

Originally Posted by empire

A word of warning, if the little state dare tried, Russia will fire a couple of nukes at them, and it is bye bye to the world,

Bang On Right empire

[arista]

"As my earlier post has mysteriously vanished I ask the question to whoever runs this website..."

Do not go there


Mark owns this Forum
James and the Team run it.

You can ask admin if they know
why your post got Deleted
Or maybe later they will tell you
but be polite about it
I know you have that quality
and I sometimes Lack that.

Life In The City

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by arista

"As my earlier post has mysteriously vanished I ask the question to whoever runs this website..."

Do not go there


Mark owns this Forum
James and the Team run it.

You can ask admin if they know
why your post got Deleted
Or maybe later they will tell you
but be polite about it
I know you have that quality
and I sometimes Lack that.

Life In The City

But Arista, I try and ensure all posts stay the right side of the rules, I do not set out to incite hatred and would avoid "hate speech" at all costs.

But if a subject is worthy of extreme criticism and my viewpoint is quite extreme then surely I should be allowed to express my feelings.

also my views are well shared and borne out by facts so again I ask the question why is this view not allowed to stand on a forum that purports to encourage "Serious Debate and News".......

Looks like censorship to me............

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

But Arista, I try and ensure all posts stay the right side of the rules, I do not set out to incite hatred and would avoid "hate speech" at all costs.

But if a subject is worthy of extreme criticism and my viewpoint is quite extreme then surely I should be allowed to express my feelings.

also my views are well shared and borne out by facts so again I ask the question why is this view not allowed to stand on a forum that purports to encourage "Serious Debate and News".......

Looks like censorship to me............

I reported your post, Nedusa. I reported it because it was highly insulting and inflammatory. Several of your posts have been insulting but I took particular exception to that post, especially since I'd stepped out of the thread because of your reaction to my posts and yet you continued to insult me indirectly. You will deny it, no doubt. But we both know. And frankly, I'm surprised you haven't been warned over your comments.

The only censorship going on here is the hysterical stance of the strongly pro-Palestine posters. I understand you're passionate about the subject but this has seemingly rendered you incapable to having a discussion about this subject. I feel I have been shut down, insulted and silenced, even though I've never once said that the Israelis are right in all aspects of what they do, I've simply tried to talk about the bigger picture. You've told me twice not to defend the indefensible and some of your posts are insulting and offensive.

I would be more than happy to have a non-hysterical discussion about this, but am unable to. That looks like censorship to me.

[user104658]

Youtube video

[arista]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Youtube video

Yes a great Clip.



Israel has Full Rights to protect itself

[Niamh.]

Back on topic please. Nedusa you should be able to discuss a topic and your point of view without calling people who disagree with your stance ignorant and stupid

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Back on topic please. Nedusa you should be able to discuss a topic and your point of view without calling people who disagree with your stance ignorant and stupid

OK.......Sorry , My Apologies

I will refrain from posting on this topic as I find it difficult to remain dispassionate.

[arista]

"Looks like censorship to me............"


No you are wrong
other sites are Far Far Worse
making this site one of the best in the World

[user104658]

Originally Posted by arista

"Looks like censorship to me............"


No you are wrong
other sites are Far Far Worse
making this site one of the best in the World

This is actually true, Tibby censorship is low as forums go. I can only think of two that I've been on that had less, and I owned one of them. The other was a little secret haven of COMPLETE freedom of speech with a very select membership and zero censorship. Sadly, all of the members have moved on now. I miss it... it was Darwinian.

Anyway, yes, I agree - this forum is really quite flexible when it comes to what you can and can't say. I've only had a handful of infractions... I've been banned on other forums for less.

[arista]

"I've been banned on other forums for less. "


You Devil

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

It is impossible in one post to examine in any great detail this very complex issue, but I am nonetheless compelled to address what I regard as certain anti-Israeli pro-Palestinian fallacies, even if such an undertaking results in several individual posts – notwithstanding the inevitable counter responses which I welcome.

I feel the best place to start is in clearing up some of the untruths regarding the Israeli's legitimate rights to be living in the State of Israel and the fallacies concerning the ‘State of Palestine’ and the actual ‘Palestinians’ themselves.

Leaving aside ‘Biblical’ evidence – for obvious reasons – there is real, if not conclusive evidence, that Jews have existed on the land which is now the State of Israel for over 3000 years, whilst at the same time it is beyond argument that ‘Palestinians’ per se have never truly historically existed and NOWHERE in pre 1960’s history has there ever been a State of Palestine.

The Merneptah Victory Stele bears an inscription by Egyptian King Meneptah who reigned from 1213 to 1203 BC and was discovered by Petrie in 1896 at Thebes. The inscription largely records Merneptah's victory over the Libyans, but also mentions another military campaign in Canaan (then part of Egypt's conquests and where modern day Israel is now situated),in which Merneptah says he defeated Ashkalon, Gezer, Yanoam and Israel.

Another ‘stele’ discovered in 1868 was inscribed by King Mesha of Moab (now Jordan) and dates to 840 BC. The inscriptions on this stele mentions how the Moabites were “subjugated’ to Israel”, and also mentions the Israelite God YAHWEH and makes the first non-Biblical reference to King David and The House of David.

Yet another ancient stele - the Tel Dan Stele – which dates to around 900 BC - was discovered in 1993–94 during a dig at Tel Dan in Northern Israel, and,its inscription in Aramaic makes reference to victories by an unknown King (but attributed to a Damascan King Hazael) over “the king of Israel and his ally the king of the "House of David".

There is other non-Biblical archaeological evidence - inscriptions on broken pottery etc - which not only places Israelis (Jews) living in Israel (Canaan) for 500 years between 3200 to 2700 years ago, but also confirms the Judaic God YAHWEH and the Biblical King David.

But what of the Palestinian case?

In stark contrast to the evidence for the Jews living in and ruling over Israel going back over 3000 years, there has never been a country called Palestine, nor was there ever a nation of people called ‘Palestinians’ until after 1964, and until this time, ‘Palestinians’ were merely ‘Arabs’, and even referred to themselves as ‘Arabs’.

In the year 135 AD, the Roman emperor Hadrian, crushed yet another Jewish rebellion and banished many of the Jews, enslaved others, and allowed only a minority of Jews to remain .in Judea (where their descendants remained right up to present times).

As an insult to these defeated Jews and in an attempt to eradicate Jewish identity, Hadrian mockingly renamed Judea as ‘Syria-Palestinia’ (‘Palestinia’ being the Latin word for ‘Philistine’, a once arch-enemy of the Jews who were by now extinct.)

So; over 3000 years after the existence of the Jews in Israel has been repeatedly historically proved, we have the first mention of the word ‘Palestine’, but it was little more than a Roman ‘nick-name used to cause offense to the subjugated Jews, and the people we now – wrongly – refer to as ‘Palestinians’ were simply ‘Arabs’ who referred to themselves as Arabs for hundreds of years until they were titled “Palestinians” for propaganda purposes by the terrorist founder of the PLO, Yassir Arafat in 1964.

Arafat himself never used the term “Palestinian” until after 1964,and far from Arabs historically using the term ’Palestinian’, they rejected and denounced it:

As far back as 1937, Arab leader Abdul-Hadi in his address to the Peel Commission said:

"There is no such country [as Palestine]. Palestine is a term the Zionists invented."

40 years later, in 1977, the same sentiment was expressed in an interview by Zahir Muhsein, a member of the PLO Executive Committee who stated;

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak about the existence of the Palestinian people."

The historical evidence also suggests that Arabs were not populous in the Holy Land until the 7th century when Muhammad initiated the spread of Islam by force and conquest.

In addition, it is telling that in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, 99% of places still have their original Hebrew names; including Bethlehem, Nazareth and Hebron.

So whilst I respect the rights of anyone on here to post their opinions on this admittedly emotional and complex issue, I cannot agree with any of the anti-Israeli comments – least of all the claim that the Israelis ‘stole’ a country from the ‘Palestinians’ because in my opinion, for over 3000 years, the ‘country’ was never anyone’s but the Israelis’ anyway, and they have merely resettled in it.

If the Lakota Sioux Indians were to be given back the state of Dakota by the US Government to resettle in, it would be ludicrous for anyone knowing the historical facts to protest that the Lakota were 'stealing' a state from the 'Americans', so therefore, for anyone to deny the rights of the Israelis to reclaim and resettle in Israel in the face of the historical evidence, is just as ridiculous - in my opinion.

The historical truth of Britain's duplicity in causing the current state-of-affairs in Israel, and the addressing of certain anti-Israeli, anti-Jewish, pro-Palestinian, comments on here, are other posts, but while I agree with Livia that Israel as a nation is not perfect nor totally innocent, I would state in their defense, that the USA and Britain are neither perfect nor totally innocent, and they have had hundreds of years and thousands of years respectively to 'get it right',so is it not grossly hypocritical and arrogant to expect Israel to achieve perfection in less than 70 years?

Brilliant post!
I love all things historical.Very interesting!

[GypsyGoth]

Thanks for posting that kirk, I found it informative.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

Thanks for posting that kirk, I found it informative.

Thanks Goth - I'm glad it was of some use to you.

[Kizzy]

The answer to genocide is....genocide?

Ethnic cleansing is that right, or am I missing something?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Please identify just whom you are addressing and which specific post states that "Genocide is the answer to genocide", or which specific post even mentions "ethic cleansing", and just 'who' is trying to 'ethnic cleanse' who.

Not you, It's a general comment on the topic in general.