[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Anaesthesia

Sadly I feel the same.

I have to make an inappropriate joke though:




I know it's about Ukraine, but still........

[kirklancaster]

Whatever the truth is on this, it is terrible, and the actions by Turkey were totally unnecessary and smack of predetermined intent.

Another human is dead because of this act of hatred, and the only thing anyone will achieve by using this tragedy as a 'political football' because of their own prejudices, is, perhaps, an own goal.

[Z]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I have this sick feeling in my stomach that what we have just witnessed the opening shots of WW3.

Turkey is both a Muslim nation and also a member of NATO, under the terms of that treaty Britain is obliged to defend Turkey should Russia attack.
A messy situation has just got a whole lot messier.

World War III started the day four flights were hijacked and deliberately flown into American territory. Or maybe World War III started as soon as World War II ended when we started drawing lines in the desert and carving up swathes of land and calling them British or French and paying absolutely no attention to the people who actually lived there and just expected them to get on with each other... Just because we're not cowering in Anderson shelters doesn't mean we're not at war. This is a new type of warfare and our governments don't know how to fight it because they can't drop bombs on an ideology. It's not even new territory, we were at it for years in the Cold War, but we already came up with the idea of a nuclear deterrent and the only time we ever encountered suicide bombers, we dropped two disgustingly big nuclear bombs on them to put an end to that and I think we can all agree that we should never do that again...

ISIS is not going away. We should withdraw and let them build the religious death cult nation they want to build, and then **** with their economy like we do with every other country in the world who won't play by our rules. Bombing the desert and indiscriminately killing their civilians is just going to create more terrorists who will indiscriminately kill our civilians in return. If we can continue to let a monstrosity like North Korea exist then we can let ISIS relive the dark ages until that collapses and something else pops up in its place, something that doesn't want to punctuate cups of coffee with bullets and add pyrotechnics to concerts. It's so ****ing simple I just can't fathom these sheep who shriek BOMB THEM or NOT ALL MUSLIMS SUPPORT ISIS!! They're a group of politically repressed and/or socially neglected who are disillusioned with the world we make them live in. We need to stop.

Instead, we have ****ery like this where the Turkish shoot down a Russian plane because both want to keep taking advantage of the mayhem, just on opposite sides. I don't think Putin was wrong in calling the Turkish accomplices of terrorists. They are. So are the Saudis. The Russians and the Iranians are accomplices of a murderous dictator. They're as bad as each other and so are we - we keep throwing money at the Saudis and let that nepotistic fiefdom continue to exist despite their objectively awful attitude to human rights.

UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Novo]

Just like to point out this year Turkey violated Greek airspace with six fighter jets who were actually in formation and you can say that could be seen as a clear threat and warranted action a whole lot more then today did but they were chased off and the problem avoided and these incidents have happened thousands of times in the past 2 years, just like Zee said there really was no logical reason to attack that Russian Jet and it could have easily been avoided.

[Josy]

WW3 is imminent

[Will.]

Originally Posted by Josy

WW3 is imminent

Would we all have to go and fight or just the army?

[DemolitionRed]

And this isn't the first time Russia have violated Turkish air space either. http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...olations-syria
What we must keep in mind is, The Russians have been bombing the Turkmans who's rebel armies sit on the borders between Turkey and Syria. The Turkmans want to overthrow Assad and ISIS. The Turks support the Turkmans and so they will have zero tolerance with the Russians.

I know the Russians claim they were bombing ISIS but the Turkmans claim there is no ISIS groups within the area that's being targeted.

[Novo]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

And this isn't the first time Russia have violated Turkish air space either. http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...olations-syria
What we must keep in mind is, The Russians have been bombing the Turkmans who's rebel armies sit on the borders between Turkey and Syria. The Turkmans want to overthrow Assad and ISIS. The Turks support the Turkmans and so they will have zero tolerance with the Russians.

I know the Russians claim they were bombing ISIS but the Turkmans claim there is no ISIS groups within the area that's being targeted.

the fact that Airspace around the is violated all the time, you know those frequent reports about Russia violating Swedish airspace? well Nato violated it a lot more times then Russia since 2010, as for violations in Turkey airspace Isreal have done it in the past, the point is this is a frequent thing but why was today the right time to shoot down a single plane? how can it be justified?

[Z]

Originally Posted by NovoBaratheon

the fact that Airspace around the is violated all the time, you know those frequent reports about Russia violating Swedish airspace? well Nato violated it a lot more times then Russia since 2010, as for violations in Turkey airspace Isreal have done it in the past, the point is this is a frequent thing but why was today the right time to shoot down a single plane? how can it be justified?

Because Turkey gives no ****s and knows perfectly well that the EU and NATO needs it as much as it needs them and finally had the perfect opportunity to exploit that loophole. Shoot down a Russian aircraft: no one will lift a finger to lay any blame at their doorstep because Turkey is a NATO ally and Russia wants to preserve the """""AXIS OF EVIL"""""........................................ the whole rhetoric is just stupid. Russia bombs ethnic Turkic people because they don't want Turkey to gobble up Assad's remaining terrain when Team America: World Police finally depose him. Turkey quietly supports ISIS and massacres its own Kurdish citizens to stop them from creating their own state in the chaos and gaining revenge somewhere down the line for the decades of oppression Turkey has imposed on them.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by NovoBaratheon

the fact that Airspace around the is violated all the time, you know those frequent reports about Russia violating Swedish airspace? well Nato violated it a lot more times then Russia since 2010, as for violations in Turkey airspace Isreal have done it in the past, the point is this is a frequent thing but why was today the right time to shoot down a single plane? how can it be justified?

Israel had an agreement to use Turkish airspace up until 2009. I don't recall any examples of Israeli planes violating Turkish airspace since then. The agreement ceased following Turkey's stance on Gaza and is unlikely to be reinstated following Turkish involvement in exposing Israeli special agents in Iran a couple of years ago.

[Brother Leon]

May god bless Russia In these times. Keep us safe, Putin.

[DemolitionRed]

I don't disagree with anything you've said Z but up until now, war has been in someone else's back garden not ours. In fact a huge percentage of Brits still live in happy oblivion of what's unfolding out there in the dessert and even if they are aware, they have no idea of the global impact it could have.

This whole thing is so fcuekd up and there's absolutely nothing we (the British people) can do about it because our government will make that choice for us.

[Z]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I don't disagree with anything you've said Z but up until now, war has been in someone else's back garden not ours. In fact a huge percentage of Brits still live in happy oblivion of what's unfolding out there in the dessert and even if they are aware, they have no idea of the global impact it could have.

This whole thing is so fcuekd up and there's absolutely nothing we (the British people) can do about it because our government will make that choice for us.

Yup. The average person in this country is too self centred and individualist to ever consider that the reason we're attacked is because our leaders have continued to devastate the Middle East and Africa for financial and political gain for centuries. We're stunned when we bomb a region for a decade and retribution turns up on our doorstep with a suicide belt and a Kalashnikov.

I've actually written an article that my friend's trying to get published for me (still editing it down from one of my usual overly long rambles into something short enough to be published somewhere as an opinion piece... haha) about all of this... I hope to get it published soon and share; if not I'll continue to paraphrase from it haha.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Z

Yup. The average person in this country is too self centred and individualist to ever consider that the reason we're attacked is because our leaders have continued to devastate the Middle East and Africa for financial and political gain for centuries. We're stunned when we bomb a region for a decade and retribution turns up on our doorstep with a suicide belt and a Kalashnikov.

I've actually written an article that my friend's trying to get published for me (still editing it down from one of my usual overly long rambles into something short enough to be published somewhere as an opinion piece... haha) about all of this... I hope to get it published soon and share; if not I'll continue to paraphrase from it haha.

Looking forward to that Z, I agree too.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Z

I've actually written an article that my friend's trying to get published for me (still editing it down from one of my usual overly long rambles into something short enough to be published somewhere as an opinion piece... haha) about all of this... I hope to get it published soon and share; if not I'll continue to paraphrase from it haha.

Look forward to reading it Z.

[King Gizzard]

Hug it out

[Northern Monkey]

Russian jets did this before around a month ago and Turkey warned that if it happened again they would shoot them down.Also if the jets were only there for a couple of seconds then how were they warned 10 times in 5 minutes?Which is apparently what happened.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Russian jets did this before around a month ago and Turkey warned that if it happened again they would shoot them down.Also if the jets were only there for a couple of seconds then how were they warned 10 times in 5 minutes?Which is apparently what happened.

good point, and also, why would the russians even get CLOSE to Turkish airspace after that warning?

I've seen the satellite positioning tracking of the russian plane, and it clearly flew into Turkish Airspace.

also let;'s keep in mind that there is NO ISIS in that area of Syria, it was only anti-assad forces. so Russia cannot claim to have been fighting ISIS down there.

[Z]

Very interesting take on what happened...

http://www.politico.eu/article/erdog...ts-down-putin/

Erdoğan shoots down Putin

Turkey’s dangerous brinkmanship with Russia.
By

Melik Kaylan

11/24/15, 9:11 PM CET

Updated 11/24/15, 9:27 PM CET

What was Erdoğan thinking? One has to assume that the deliberate downing of a Russian bomber by Turkish fighter jets was no accident, that it was ordered from the top. Otherwise, we would have heard very audible diplomatic apologies from the Turkish side to the Kremlin. Nor would Putin have openly called it a “stab in the back.”

This little knot of what-didn’t-happen is revealing in itself. Presumably the Turks could have pretended the whole thing was an accident while assuming that Putin got the message. Instead Ankara chose to make Monday’s incident a public rebuke and humiliation for the Kremlin, a palpable act of hostility between nations and, indeed, between power blocs, for Erdoğan quickly called a meeting with NATO brass. So what were his calculations?

* * *

We should understand, first, the leadership style of the two presidents to see how such a confrontation could occur. As many have noted, Putin and Erdoğan have built power in comparable ways, using semi-despotic methods of governance to retain and deploy power unilaterally. This has allowed Putin to invade Georgia and Ukraine while Erdoğan has bombed the Kurds in Syria who are fighting ISIL. In both cases, the stoking of armed conflict in the teeth of global criticism led to consolidation of domestic support.

In Erdoğan’s case, such a risky use of Turkish air power also indicates that he has totally overcome any residual resistance from the armed forces to his overweening schemes. Both leaders, too, being free to move according to personal whim, tend to act on personal grudges against foreign leaders: witness Putin’s constant reviling of Georgia’s former President Saakashvili and Erdoğan’s of Assad.

So, the war of nerves between Putin and Erdoğan has become a motive force in itself, despite the potential of severe damage to both countries’ interests, not least the budding agreement over a Russian fuel pipeline to Europe via Turkey. No small calculation, this, as it meant the freeing up of Russian oil from its dependence on the supply route through Ukraine which gave Kiev strategic leverage over Moscow.

When Putin ordered Russian bombers into Syria to uphold Assad, Erdoğan clearly drew his own conclusions. The Kremlin didn’t care enough about the pipeline to show consideration for Erdoğan’s feelings. The more “moderate” Syrian opposition forces first bombed by Russia were precisely those getting open support from Ankara.

Furthermore, Erdoğan must have understood that he couldn’t depend on the U.S. or Europe (or NATO) to rein in Putin’s 19th century-style Great Game initiatives. Putin in Syria might represent a proxy threat to the West’s allies; but the West had sharper preoccupations, whereas it represented a direct and comprehensive threat to Turkey: Russia’s emboldening of the Shiite crescent from Tehran to Iraq to Syria fully encircled Turkey’s land borders to other Muslim countries. Erdoğan could kiss goodbye to his Neo-Ottoman imperial dreams. And presumably to the kind of massive economic infusions from the Sunni Gulf that have bolstered his domestic standing. Why fund him if he watches lamely as the Shiites build their rival power bloc with Moscow’s help?

HaberTurk TV Channel shows a burning trail as a plane comes down after being shot down near the Turkish-Syrian border

Also On Politico
Russia-Turkey energy relationship at risk

Kalina Oroschakoff
Russian Air Force Su-24 bombers fly during a military exercise in southern Russia on February 11, 2015.

Also On Politico
Turkey feels Putin’s fury over downed fighter

Vince Chadwick

* * *

Above all, though, recent events around ISIL are the likely trigger for Erdoğan’s action. Not merely because he seems to harbor a grudging sympathy for their pro-Sunni contributions, but because he sees a potential regrouping of alliances to focus on eradicating ISIL first. He senses that Europe might soften towards Putin in the joint purpose — and what that might entail. He has incited Sunni religious feeling at home to keep power and now he must stand by it: The Christian bloc looks to be uniting against Turkey in a way that recalls the very Ottoman centuries he yearns to recreate. In this scenario, even Greece and Georgia will shut their doors and isolate Turkey altogether.

So Erdoğan has chosen to test the West’s allegiance by the kind of brinkmanship that he has seen Moscow exploit repeatedly. He has demanded from his allies an answer to an ultimately divisive question, one that threatens to reorder the world’s alignments for the next 100 or so years: Do you wish to revive the Crusades?

Which is precisely what ISIL is hoping to do.

Melik Kaylan, an Anglo-Turk, is a foreign affairs columnist for Forbes.com and co-author of “The Russia-China Axis: The New Cold War” (Encounter Books, 2014).

[Kizzy]

I hope Putin knows that they won't have had NATO or UN backing........ Please say they didn't.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I hope Putin knows that they won't have had NATO or UN backing........ Please say they didn't.

I highly doubt it - but Turkey is pushing the exact same button Russia pushed when it annexed the Crimea.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I hope Putin knows that they won't have had NATO or UN backing........ Please say they didn't.

They didn't. But NATO says they "stand by" their Turkish ally.

[Kizzy]

On the news the distances discussed sound odd, they were half a mile away from where they should be. half a mile?!

[Northern Monkey]

Putin already lied once and said the jets were shot down from the ground in Syria.He's changed his tune now there's evidence that is not the case.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Putin already lied once and said the jets were shot down from the ground in Syria.He's changed his tune now there's evidence that is not the case.

The Turks own flight data shows that the Russian plane could only possibly have been over the border for the merest second, and only because of the unusual shape of the border at that specific point if it did cross at all.

This was a Turkish ploy in support of IS.