[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Absence of proof is not proof of absence

Yes but you could say that about anything space unicorns for instance.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yes but you could say that about anything space unicorns for instance.

But we are not talking about them.

What do you want me to say? I said before religious doctrines are unlikely to be true, but you can't prove it especially if interpreting them freely. I'm not going to condemn them and I'm happy for them to exist as long as they don't force themselves on anybody.
But I'm not going to ridicule them or selectively cite only negatives about them.
And I'm not going to trivialise the issue.
I hope that's ok with you and other strident critics of religion in this thread. I'm not budging.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

But we are not talking about them.

What do you want me to say? I said before religious doctrines are unlikely to be true, but you can't prove it especially if interpreting them freely. I'm not going to condemn them and I'm happy for them to exist as long as they don't force themselves on anybody.
But I'm not going to ridicule them or selectively cite only negatives about them.
And I'm not going to trivialise the issue.
I hope that's ok with you and other strident critics of religion in this thread. I'm not budging.

You don't need my approval to have an opinion? Just having a debate in Serious Debates. . .

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

You don't need my approval to have an opinion? Just having a debate in Serious Debates. . .

Sorry. I lost my cool bc of the pride thread. Shouldn't have taken it out on you.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Absence of proof is not proof of absence

It's not proof of absence but it does suggest a very high likelihood of absence. There are very few things that can be "proven" in any absolute sense so there's no point going down that road; we can only deal in probability and likelihood. The likelihood that Christianity or any other mainstream religion represents anything resembling "truth", when there is zero evidence of it despite multiple-billions of people presumably having a direct interest in providing that evidence, means that the likelihood of it being accurate is not just small but miniscule.

I am well aware that people often have a strong emotional attachment to religion and would be lost, probably even depressed, without it. I think it serves a definite purpose. I would never go up to little old Betty who has just lost her husband and say "lol no Betty, it's statistically HIGHLY improbable that you'll meet again in heaven"... But, on a debates forum, in a religious debate, I think it should be safe enough to stick with what's actually rational. Religion is not rational. Faith is not rational. There are NO rational arguments for blind faith, and no reason to assume that anyone's "personal spiritual experience of God" is anything more than placebo. It's as simple as that.

And yes I know that "that's the point of faith" etc etc when it comes to day to day scenarios like poor Betty above, but it doesn't have much place in a logical, reasoned discussion.

[Withano]

A quesion thats always bugged me

Why is God considered good, and the devil bad, when God is the one that chooses who makes heaven and who gets sent to hell for an eternity of damnation.

One chooses who gets punished, and the other does the punishing... kinda sounds like they’re on the same team but with different jobs...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

A quesion thats always bugged me

Why is God considered good, and the devil bad, when God is the one that chooses who makes heaven and who gets sent to hell for an eternity of damnation.

One chooses who gets punished, and the other does the punishing... kinda sounds like they’re on the same team but with different jobs...

Good point.

[user104658]

That's not an Atheism argument by the way. The likelihood of there being SOME form of intelligent design / higher power is a complete unknown and therefore 50/50. It just isn't Christian God or any other human god, or anything even vaguely similar to any concept of God that humanity has suggested.

The idea that we have it figured out is ludicrously arrogant.

[Niamh.]

I did actually have a conversation with Luke about it when he got to 6th class though and I told him I'd rather he didn't make his confirmation but it was up to him and he wanted to do.it for 2 reasons, 1 because he didn't want to be sitting alone in class doing work while the others did confirmation stuff and 2 money money money. So yeah take it out if STATE run schools and watch those numbers drop

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I did actually have a conversation with Luke about it when he got to 6th class though and I told him I'd rather he didn't make his confirmation but it was up to him and he wanted to do.it for 2 reasons, 1 because he didn't want to be sitting alone in class doing work while the others did confirmation stuff and 2 money money money. So yeah take it out if STATE run schools and watch those numbers drop

So it was his choice, it’s the same for many kids, mine did their confirmation at 15 but they chose to do it, neither go to church now and thats fine, they didn’t attend a catholic secondary school either and that was their choice also, the idea that children who are baptised are forever indoctrinated is a false assumption usually perpetrated by non christians

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

So it was his choice, it’s the same for many kids, mine did their confirmation at 15 but they chose to do it, neither go to church now and thats fine, they didn’t attend a catholic secondary school either and that was their choice also, the idea that children who are baptised are forever indoctrinated is a false assumption usually perpetrated by non christians

Yeah it was his choice but influenced heavily by the fact that everyone else in his class was doing it Atleast with the secondary schools here now, eventhough they're mostly Catholic ethos too they now have Religion as a factual based subject (along with the "normal" religion class) My daughter actually had to do a religion exam for her Junior Cert which i thought was strange but it was on a few religions not just Catholicism

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Cherie

So it was his choice, it’s the same for many kids, mine did their confirmation at 15 but they chose to do it, neither go to church now and thats fine, they didn’t attend a catholic secondary school either and that was their choice also, the idea that children who are baptised are forever indoctrinated is a false assumption usually perpetrated by non christians

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

So it was his choice, it’s the same for many kids, mine did their confirmation at 15 but they chose to do it, neither go to church now and thats fine, they didn’t attend a catholic secondary school either and that was their choice also, the idea that children who are baptised are forever indoctrinated is a false assumption usually perpetrated by non christians

Thankfully in the modern world, the availability of information means that (probably most at this point) are not "indoctrinated"... But that doesn't mean it isn't an attempt to do so? I certainly don't assume that children raised in a religion are forever doomed to stick with it; my dad was raised strictly Catholic and is non-religious, and my wife was also Catholic schooled from age 5 to 16 and has (more or less) the same religious stance as me.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Thankfully in the modern world, the availability of information means that (probably most at this point) are not "indoctrinated"... But that doesn't mean it isn't an attempt to do so? I certainly don't assume that children raised in a religion are forever doomed to stick with it; my dad was raised strictly Catholic and is non-religious, and my wife was also Catholic schooled from age 5 to 16 and has (more or less) the same religious stance as me.

No it is not an attempt to do so at all lol, more often that not getting a child baptised is a family tradition and sending them to catholic school is down to the school doing well in league tables, but I would agree that Islam has an indoctrination element to it

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Cherie

No it is not an attempt to do so at all lol, more often that not getting a child baptised is a family tradition and sending them to catholic school is down to the school doing well in league tables, but I would agree that Islam has an indoctrination element to it

Understatement of the millennium?

[Livia]

If I had to pick a good bunch of Christians, I'm going with the Salvation Army. They do so much for others, especially homeless people. They really do seem to have the courage of their convictions.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

If I had to pick a good bunch of Christians, I'm going with the Salvation Army. They do so much for others, especially homeless people. They really do seem to have the courage of their convictions.

I agree, Liv. They are 'Living' Christians - Deeds Not Just Words.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Mormons is another who practice what they preach in respect of others.

I have had answered the door to Mormon 'Cold-Callers' numerous times over the years at various properties which I was renovating, and within minutes of chatting to them, once they learnt that I was refurbing, they have always genuinely volunteered to return in work clothes with other members of their church to give me' a hand'.

I have always declined these kind offers but it has stayed with me that - like the 'Sally Army - THIS is more in keeping with Christ's teachings than any 'hollow' words from a pulpit.

[bots]

I've always enjoyed Madonna's interpretation

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I agree, Liv. They are 'Living' Christians - Deeds Not Just Words.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Mormons is another who practice what they preach in respect of others.

I have had answered the door to Mormon 'Cold-Callers' numerous times over the years at various properties which I was renovating, and within minutes of chatting to them, once they learnt that I was refurbing, they have always genuinely volunteered to return in work clothes with other members of their church to give me' a hand'.

I have always declined these kind offers but it has stayed with me that - like the 'Sally Army - THIS is more in keeping with Christ's teachings than any 'hollow' words from a pulpit.

But you're against indoctrination and or polygamy?... ok.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

But you're against indoctrination and or polygamy?... ok.

What the hell are you referring to?

Because I may recognise and admire one or more qualities in an organisation it does not follow that I 'blind' myself to all its many faults - I am NOT a Labour supporter.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

But you're against indoctrination and or polygamy?... ok.

Even if Kirk came out tomorrow morning now to say that he wasn’t, he’d still be talking in the way that you will not like.

Long time, Kizzy. Where are you?

[Niamh.]

Well Christians are hardly going to be saying it are they?

[Maru]

Usually it's harder to keep someone involved church rather than the latter. Unless the church makes them accumulate a **** ton of debt to sell books or threaten to force their family members cut them off for the rest of eternity if they can't keep paying or won't sign a billion year contract to do hard labor for them... Just sayin'...

[Kizzy]

The Salvation army wouldn't have me because I'm not a Christian

[armand.kay]

Well I was raised as a catholic gal