[Jordan.]

I get his theme park comparison. It's like they're fun to experience for the first time but once you've seen everything they have to offer there's little need or desire to ever return to them.

[Wizard.]

And who's this guy in the cinema world? Not one I've heard of that's for sure!

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Wizard.

And who's this guy in the cinema world? Not one I've heard of that's for sure!

You must have seen Hugo or Shutter Island or Wolf of Wall Street? He made them.

Not to mention

Taxi Driver
Raging Bull
Goodfellas
The Departed

And also

Mean Streets
Casino
After Hours
The Aviator
The last temptation of Christ
Gangs of New York
The King of Comedy

And others

[Tom4784]

There's been a lot of female led films but a lot of them tend to be focused on the male gaze or oversexualisation of it's lead. Ripley in the Alien films was written without a gender in mind so while that has it's own merits, it also counts against it being an example of a well written female character. Sarah Connor was a lead character but the Terminator films as a whole were vehicles for Arnie.

Alice in the RE films was definitely a character designed to appeal to males rather than females. I can't remember much about the Underworld films apart from Kate Beckinsale running around in a skintight catsuit. Katniss Everdeen's a decent exception.

A lot of the backlash does come from a place of misogyny, I've not watched the newest Ghostbusters film but from what I heard, it wasn't that bad but I remember a lot of the anger towards it began when the cast was announced. I don't think it would have mattered if the film was a masterpiece, the people out to hate it would have hated it regardless of it's quality. Look at The Last Jedi as well, a lot of the hate towards that film was attributed towards the focus on female characters to such a point that a fan edit became popular in which the female characters roles were minimized and it was the male characters that were the focus.

I think a lot of anger over female roles tend to come from the same place, nerd culture.

You see it all the time in gaming, for example. If you ever watch a showcase for video games and a female developer appears, you can guarantee a flood of gross comments about her. If you have a female character that wears sensible clothes, you'll get a bunch of losers screeching that the character not having tits bigger than next week is PC gone mad.

If a girl engages in anything nerdy, you can guarantee it'll put the male nerds backs up.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I guess I'd also add that an issue with SC as a female lead is that she spent 90% of T1 as a "damsel in distress" and totally reliant on protection from Kyle... And in fact, even in T2 there are "callbacks" to the fact that her now-strong character is thanks to his "training" and influence. "On your feet, soldier" etc.

Eh, she was a waitress who'd never had a fight in her life, it was realistic reaction

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Ripley in the Alien films was written without a gender in mind so while that has it's own merits, it also counts against it being an example of a well written female character.

To be fair I thought the issue was about "fan" reaction rather than how or why a character was written?

A lot of the backlash does come from a place of misogyny, I've not watched the newest Ghostbusters film but from what I heard, it wasn't that bad but I remember a lot of the anger towards it began when the cast was announced. I don't think it would have mattered if the film was a masterpiece, the people out to hate it would have hated it regardless of it's quality. Look at The Last Jedi as well, a lot of the hate towards that film was attributed towards the focus on female characters to such a point that a fan edit became popular in which the female characters roles were minimized and it was the male characters that were the focus.

I reeaaaally Last Jedi, but people who rag on it for the "female focus" just give me collective embarrassment. It's gotten to the point where I feel like I'm being lumped in with them when I voice displeasure about it.

[user104658]

I guess I'd also add that an issue with SC as a female lead is that she spent 90% of T1 as a "damsel in distress" and totally reliant on protection from Kyle... And in fact, even in T2 there are "callbacks" to the fact that her now-strong character is thanks to his "training" and influence. "On your feet, soldier" etc.

That said, I do think we're starting to see more genuine female-protagonist shows, movies and games recently and not just tokenistic ones.

[Niamh.]

Just to pick up your comment on Katniss Dezzy, she was written by a woman, that could be the difference

[Brother Leon]

I mean. The last two Avengers movies had Cinema screens sounding like football stadiums almost. If that’s not conveying emotions and experiences to viewers then I don’t know what is.

[LaLaLand]

I don’t think he worded it the best but I understand and agree with what he means.

[GiRTh]

I agree with what he's trying to say. There is a lack of soul in most arts these day, particularly music and cinema. The best stories have always been difficult to tell in an hour and half movie but these days many movies are more a marketing exercise than genuine well told good stories. Many TV series over the years are imo better made and better told than the average blockbuster movie.

[Marsh.]

Yeah, I kind of understand what he means. But he's worded it awfully by suggesting comic book films/sci-fi etc cannot be well made cinema or "movie art". They can. Picking at examples he doesn't think are good doesn't discredit the genre.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Yeah, I kind of understand what he means. But he's worded it awfully by suggesting comic book films/sci-fi etc cannot be well made cinema or "movie art". They can. Picking at examples he doesn't think are good doesn't discredit the genre.

Yeah, he just made himself look like a gatekeeping arse. A superhero film can be every bit a piece of art as any prestige picture or oscar bait. Were it not for the jam packed year it was released, Logan would have likely seen a **** ton of Oscar success, The Dark Knight WAS an Oscar contender and the way it's looking, Joker will be too.

Comic books are such a wide medium that to discredit it as a film genre is just dumb.

[Ammi]

...Samuel L Jackson, as well as others, are becoming involved in the ‘debate’ now ...so he’s definitely got people talking, which is a good thing...the audiences are always who decide what cinema is by what they pay to go and see...there are many movies which are very critically acclaimed but an audience may feel that acclaim has been over sold and may feel disappointment...’yeah it was good but I expected sooooo much more ...etc...’....


...there is so much content in a Marvel movie with the back stories and the plot and the spectacular effects as well...so many things that have to come together perfectly to please a Marvel audience member and do a Marvel character, justice...as a director of such standing, Scorsese knows that...so to dismiss that huge heart and soul that goes into a Marvel movie as ..no that’s not cinema...is a little silly of him...

[Ammi]

...I guess that the special effect../..visual movies like Marvel etc are the ones that draw the cinema audiences more because so much is lost on a small screen...Scorsese would have seen a huge change..(..and decline..?...)...in cinema goers through his years of film making ...

[user104658]

OK. Settle in Alf. I would like to talk to you all about one of (to me) the most important concepts in entertainment; escapism.

I love cinema. I love all sorts of cinema. I love deeply psychological movies and can absolutely appreciate a masterpiece of the genre when I see one but it is a complete fallacy to suggest that any one genre or "type" of movie is superior to any other. Honestly? I think that when Scorsese says that films are or should be about - ONLY about - "human beings trying to convey emotional, psychological experiences to another human being" he is being self-aggrandising and short sighted. Sorry, Martin, if you're reading this, but Dezzy is correct... you are being a gatekeeping prick.

Because whilst some of the best movies, and many of my favourite movies, are complex narratives with deeply psychological themes - the idea that I (or I think most people) are looking for that every time they sit down at a screen is frankly insane. And being totally honest I think would be verging on damaging for most people.

Some days, so many days now, there's such a torrent of absolute BS going on in the real world that I can't imagine anything less appealing than a dark and gritty peek at the underbelly of the human psyche. No. Just... no, thank you.

Sometimes, for me at least and I'm sure I'm not alone, cinema is exactly what the guy says at the cinema when he's telling you to turn off your phone. "Switch off from the outside world". Just let it take you somewhere else for a precious few hours, where some familiar unambiguously good people fight some unambiguously bad people in scenes that could never exist in the real world, and the fate of the world and/or universe hangs in the balance.

And there is absolutely an art in that - because it can fail easily if it isn't done right. Maintaining immersion, keeping you locked away in that world where the unbelievable temporarily looks feasible, is absolutely not a formula that goes right every time. I've been to *plenty* of high-concept action/fantasy/sci-fi movies that jump the shark too early and snap you back to being a bored human looking at CGI explosions on a screen.

It's something I could go on about endlessly really, Alf. I'm huge on immersion, continuity, in-universe rules. It's a completely different type of film making and trying to say that "Scorsese style movies are better" isn't just comparing apples and oranges, it's comparing apples and... tennis. Or dogs. The whole reason for watching is completely different, and no one has to limit themself to one or the other.

It's also obviously completely subjective; for example, I can't stand musicals (in movie form; tbf I enjoy them on stage) but I can completely appreciate that they are some people's brand of escapism and that shouldn't be minimised either.


tl;dr I love movies. I love deeply psychological movies, but a lot of the time, I'm not in the headspace to watch them. Some days I just want to see a supersolder hitting a nazi in the face with a shield - and I'm eternally grateful that people are filming that.

[user104658]

Also just saw this in Twitter comments which I tend to avoid like the plague, but I agree;

If he can't comprehend art forms other than those he creates, then I wouldn't call him "Brilliant"

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Also just saw this in Twitter comments which I tend to avoid like the plague, but I agree;

If he can't comprehend art forms other than those he creates, then I wouldn't call him "Brilliant"

Spot on.

Finding himself the only creator of "true cinema" is arrogant bollocks.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Spot on.

Finding himself the only creator of "true cinema" is arrogant bollocks.

Nearly as much bollox as what you're talking there.

Scorsese is a massive cinema fan. And he most certainly talks more about others work than he does his own.

Listen to him talk about Fellini or Kurasawa or Kubrick or Ford or Hitchcock or Powell and Pressburger or Bergmann or Kazan.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Alf

Nearly as much bollox as what you're talking there.

Scorsese is a massive cinema fan. And he most certainly talks more about others work than he does his own.

Listen to him talk about Fellini or Kurasawa or Kubrick or Ford or Hitchcock or Powell and Pressburger or Bergmann or Kazan.

The problem is that he rarely respects modern cinema unless it's in his wheel house which is what TS and Marsh are saying. He only has love for people that are doing similar things that he does or films that were made before the 1980's.

His attitude is just very dismissive of a lot of modern works unless they fit into certain genres or styles he approves of. He's good at what he does but he is extremely elitist.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Alf

Nearly as much bollox as what you're talking there.

Scorsese is a massive cinema fan. And he most certainly talks more about others work than he does his own.

Listen to him talk about Fellini or Kurasawa or Kubrick or Ford or Hitchcock or Powell and Pressburger or Bergmann or Kazan.

The problem with Scorcsese's comment is that he has made himself come across as a very narrow-minded Movie goer who can only appreciate Psychological Movies, which don't get me wrong things like the first Saw Movie (which nobody gives enough credit for being Psychological) Psycho, and 1984 with John Hurt are all great Psychological or emotional Movies, but not every Movie should be like them imo.

Also I'm not the biggest fan of stories that focus too much on Romances (unless they're comedic) but I'd still call them Cinema, and I'm sure that some of them are good Movies at what they are, I wouldn't just dismiss the genre as "bad" like Scorsese has done with Superhero stuff.

[Ammi]

...’build it and they will come..’...and if they come, then it’s cinema because it becomes part of the beating heart of cinema audiences...it would be interesting to take away all of the Marvel audiences from the box office figures over the years...and see what cinema would be without them...it’s good for cinema though, that he has many people talking about it...

[Niamh.]

Great post TS, absolutely agree. To add, Superhero movies are a great way to bond with your kids aswell imo. The hours and hours myself and my son spent discussing the Marvel movies on car journeys and counting down the days till the next film came out, that's pretty priceless to me too

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Great post TS, absolutely agree. To add, Superhero movies are a great way to bond with your kids aswell imo. The hours and hours myself and my son spent discussing the Marvel movies on car journeys and counting down the days till the next film came out, that's pretty priceless to me too

My youngest (despite being a terror herself at times ) finds any even mild violence / threat in live action films distressing unfortunately. She doesn't care about cartoons beating each other up but I don't think she fully understands that "real people" aren't actually getting hurt! Eldest has also resisted Superhero stuff mostly thus far, however I did convince her to come to Spider-man Far From Home with a bribe of Skittles and she loved it so there's hope yet . The "it's American High School Kids" (basically her preferred genre of... everything...) element was enough to win her over.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

My youngest (despite being a terror herself at times ) finds any even mild violence / threat in live action films distressing unfortunately. She doesn't care about cartoons beating each other up but I don't think she fully understands that "real people" aren't actually getting hurt! Eldest has also resisted Superhero stuff mostly thus far, however I did convince her to come to Spider-man Far From Home with a bribe of Skittles and she loved it so there's hope yet . The "it's American High School Kids" (basically her preferred genre of... everything...) element was enough to win her over.

Awww pity, the "Who would win in a fight" conversations are the best Fingers crossed you get her hooked