[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

A proven theory is not fact, gravity is not fact, and the fact that you don't know/understand that knocks the legs out of this discussion. I can't help you with fundamentals.



The academic distinction between theory and fact is what it is, and if anything sociopolitical theory is always going to be more subjective and have less robust proof behind it than theories in the "hard sciences".

Again you're trying to muddy the water of this debate with some pedantic musing about gravity...I'm not here to discuss gravity so it doesn't ' knock the legs' from my opinion on the topic I'm here to discuss.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

The wording refers to those who wish to 'abolish' or 'overthrow' capitalism so I don't think that applies to unions or the Labour party but more radical groups who would support violence/illegal means to achieve that goal. I think schools should certainly cover critiques of capitalism but if they were doing so via material produced by, say, the CPGB then that's a little different

There are different types of capitalism it is an umbrella term but there are those that are more exploitative than others. Venture capitalism for instance. A fair and explanatory synopsis of capitalism can easily identify which have negative impacts nationally, globally, ecologically or historically.

Some are just bad, no matter how or who dresses them up. It would be noble to just admit that some political and economical theories followed by successive government's were just plain wrong rather than arguing that it's wrong to even debate the issue.

What good, growth or progress can come of that approach for the future?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Again you're trying to muddy the water of this debate with some pedantic musing about gravity...I'm not here to discuss gravity so it doesn't ' knock the legs' from my opinion on the topic I'm here to discuss.

Ok.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

This I see as just wrong, and it's ok for us to disagree here. Any anti-capitalist discussion would have to include Marx (not Marxism necessarily) because his criticisms and predictions have been proved true, but he is an anti-capitalist.

The renaissance period wasn't brought about by priests criticising themselves and giving away their power, it was the introduction of the free thought movement and outside criticisms.

Self criticism from (government decided) pro capitalist groups would be automatic and co-opted capitalist propaganda.

Have his predictions been proved true? Marx thought capitalism would inevitably fall in quite short order when the workers achieved class consciousness, 150 years on and capitalism is stronger than ever

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Have his predictions been proved true? Marx thought capitalism would inevitably fall in quite short order when the workers achieved class consciousness, 150 years on and capitalism is stronger than ever

I guess the current strength of capitalism is decided by the perspective of the individual, because the speed at which wealth disparity is increasing, isn't healthy or the basis of a strong economy in any way.

He was correct about entrefemdung, about insecurity for workers, wealth disparity. As an example, Jeff Bezos has just under 900,000 employees, and if he gave them all a $100,000 bonus tomorrow, he'd have as much money left over as he had at the start of the pandemic, whilst workers are being abused on zero hour contracts, and he was on the money when it came to taxing corporate wealth to benefit society.

He was absolutely bang on when he wrote about capitalism lurching from crisis to crisis and I could go on. I would also argue that class consciousness is still an on-going endeavour, especially when highlighted by the fact that working class people who have achieved upward mobility, are equally liable to look down their noses at the remaining working class. A glance at the Rashford thread will highlight what I mean.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I guess the current strength of capitalism is decided by the perspective of the individual, because the speed at which wealth disparity is increasing, isn't healthy or the basis of a strong economy in any way.

He was correct about entrefemdung, about insecurity for workers, wealth disparity. As an example, Jeff Bezos has just under 900,000 employees, and if he gave them all a $100,000 bonus tomorrow, he'd have as much money left over as he had at the start of the pandemic, whilst workers are being abused on zero hour contracts, and he was on the money when it came to taxing corporate wealth to benefit society.

He was absolutely bang on when he wrote about capitalism lurching from crisis to crisis and I could go on. I would also argue that class consciousness is still an on-going endeavour, especially when highlighted by the fact that working class people who have achieved upward mobility, are equally liable to look down their noses at the remaining working class. A glance at the Rashford thread will highlight what I mean.

There's definitely problems but imo capitalism has been the most effective tool at lifting people out of poverty globally and that's why Marxist movements have mostly faded now. 'Class consciousness' was surely much higher in the early-mid 20th century than it is now

Some of that is fair though, but I think Marx underestimated capitalisms ability to adapt and the ability of technology to completely change the circumstances, I mean the working class has never been a homogenous group but is much less so now than when the majority of the population worked in manual industries. Marx should always be studied but I think the world today is totally different to how he expected it to be

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by MTVN

There's definitely problems but imo capitalism has been the most effective tool at lifting people out of poverty globally and that's why Marxist movements have mostly faded now. 'Class consciousness' was surely much higher in the early-mid 20th century than it is now

Some of that is fair though, but I think Marx underestimated capitalisms ability to adapt and the ability of technology to completely change the circumstances, I mean the working class has never been a homogenous group but is much less so now than when the majority of the population worked in manual industries. Marx should always be studied but I think the world today is totally different to how he expected it to be

Some good and fair points in there, but anyone who looks at the world today with the way the wealth is dangerously congregating towards fewer individuals, poverty rising starkly, and with the increasing necessity even for working people to need foodbanks, and thinks yeah, capitalism is working for everyone, then I'm not sure what you're looking at.

Capitalism has made great contributions to combatting poverty, but if you want to go back to a golden age. then you're looking at tax rates of 70/80 and even 90 percent on the wealthiest individuals/corporations, which then provided the things that society needed.

I think communism and the cold war were the most damaging things to happen to Marxism (a different debate), but I'd actually suggest that socialism/Marxism is probably more on the rise at the moment than at any time post WW2.

[Elliot]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Criticising capitalism is fine tbh. But critical race theory has no place in ... Well, anywhere really. Apart from Tumblr.

If you’re talking about race science and how iq tests are used to dehumanise black people and call them stupid I agree

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Elliot

If you’re talking about race science and how IQ tests are used to dehumanise black people and call them stupid I agree

I'd question where this is actually happening - as I can't think of anywhere that uses IQ testing in any official or mandatory capacity. The only IQ tests I've ever taken were an official one out of curiosity, and online ones (which are mostly bull**** anyway) for "fun".

I'm aware of the standard IQ test being culturally biased, but unless you take an IQ test because you fancy taking an IQ test... there's no reason or scenario I can think of where someone would be asked to take one at all.

The bias of the test also has nothing to do with biological race bias by the way - it is entirely cultural/location bias (i.e. which country you were educated in).

[utopianman]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

How are we learning from history by making discussions illegal? That's willfully ignoring, not learning.

Its the hardliners on the left and other radicals who are making it difficult to discuss these issues as they automatically accuse any critics as racist when theyre not

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by utopianman

Its the hardliners on the left and other radicals who are making it difficult to discuss these issues as they automatically accuse any critics as racist when theyre not

Do people accused of racism lose the ability to speak? I'm tired of the whole 'wah, people are trying to silence me by pointing out racism' bull****. If you aren't a racist, refute it, argue against it.

If right wingers feel silenced by accusations of racism then perhaps they should better learn how to argue their points and defend themselves better. Or, they could just try to be at least less racist.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

what a speech. Schooling the opposite side of the house - have a watch and see what you think? (it's very watchable and NOT boring)

Equalities Minister Kemi Badenoch made a speech during a debate on Black
History Month, in which she said any British schools teaching critical race theory
are “breaking the law” and criticised the “anti-capitalist” Black Lives Matter
group.

Youtube video

She did not say that, she said if a teacher made statements like the police should be defined and presented theory as fact it would break the law.

I do think she herself could do with learning a thing or two on the subject before complaining about imaginary scenarios.

Contrary to some of the depictions on Twitter, on talk-shows and even in parliament
CRT does*not*view all White people as evil and racist.CRT does*not*peddle a view of Black people as powerless victims.CRT does*not*imagine that racism is the only social problem and thereby erase issues of class, gender, disability and other forms of discrimination.*


https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/researc...ory/index.aspx

[Kizzy]

Youtube video

[The Slim Reaper]

These jokers

[Crimson Dynamo]

[arista]

[Equalities Minister Kemi Badenoch made a speech during a debate on Black
History Month, in which she said any British schools teaching critical race theory
are “breaking the law” and criticised the “anti-capitalist” Black Lives Matter
group.]




Good on Kemi

[arista]

Yes The London Mayor
thinks he is down with the kids.