[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Ahh come on, even a Christian historian would take issue with this claim, surely? The Roman Empire initially was originally threatened by Christianity, it could see the speed at which the religion was growing, and so it adopted it and used it as a system of control, often through forced conversion. It wasn't created to control the masses (whether you believe in it's "truth" or not) but it certainly HAS been used to that end and has been several times throughout history (Romans, Crusades, colonization of Africa, colonisation of the American continent, etc.). To say otherwise is... well... it's just turning a blind eye to history .

the monarchy has hijacked anything and everything to maintain its revolting tyranny for 1000s of years....the fact they tried to pervert Christs messages is irrelevant to Christs actual message....Im surprised you allowed the powers that be to befuddle you. It really is simple.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by the truth

the monarchy has hijacked anything and everything to maintain its revolting tyranny for 1000s of years....the fact they tried to pervert Christs messages is irrelevant to Christs actual message....Im surprised you allowed the powers that be to befuddle you. It really is simple.

The fact that it was hijacked to that end rather than created for that reason isn't really all that important, though... not to an "unbeliever", anyway. The reason it took hold so quickly, and so massively (there was mention of "2 billion Christians" before - an exaggerated figure of course but still, illustrative) is because it was used by Empires (Roman, British, Spanish). Often through threat of violence. Whether you see that as a corruption of an original religious Truth, or simply as a convenient tool used to control primitive minds, is largely irrelevant. The motivations of those spreading the faith en masse was what it was and to deny that is to twist the facts.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The fact that it was hijacked to that end rather than created for that reason isn't really all that important, though... not to an "unbeliever", anyway. The reason it took hold so quickly, and so massively (there was mention of "2 billion Christians" before - an exaggerated figure of course but still, illustrative) is because it was used by Empires (Roman, British, Spanish). Often through threat of violence. Whether you see that as a corruption of an original religious Truth, or simply as a convenient tool used to control primitive minds, is largely irrelevant. The motivations of those spreading the faith en masse was what it was and to deny that is to twist the facts.

I 100% disagree entirely. The word of Christ is all that matters. The fact a bunch of empire building mass murdering monarchies who carried out mass murder, torture, starvation, death camps, rapists and psychos use and pervert and corrupted everything, including their version fo patriotism, they perverted versions of religion, just as they corrupt the concept of democracy , science , sociology and many other facets of society ...doesn't make these subjects any less valid. Should we scrap science because of the atomic bomb? should we scrap democracy because democratic nations allowed evil scum like stalin, hitler , Mussolini to rise to power? no. we work with what weve got.....we learn from the mistakes, we try to capture the evil doers and punish them and we attempt to rewards the just, the smart and the hard working....does life always work out perfectly ? no. but that doesn't mean you throw out the baby with the bathwater and certainly not throw out the timeless lessons of Christ

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The fact that it was hijacked to that end rather than created for that reason isn't really all that important, though... not to an "unbeliever", anyway. The reason it took hold so quickly, and so massively (there was mention of "2 billion Christians" before - an exaggerated figure of course but still, illustrative) is because it was used by Empires (Roman, British, Spanish). Often through threat of violence. Whether you see that as a corruption of an original religious Truth, or simply as a convenient tool used to control primitive minds, is largely irrelevant. The motivations of those spreading the faith en masse was what it was and to deny that is to twist the facts.

"Christianity is the world's biggest religion, with about 2.1 billion followers worldwide. It is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ who lived in the Holy Land 2,000 years ago."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/

Just one link... there's plenty of other reliable sites giving the same number if you don't trust the BBC.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

"Christianity is the world's biggest religion, with about 2.1 billion followers worldwide. It is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ who lived in the Holy Land 2,000 years ago."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/

Just one link... there's plenty of other reliable sites giving the same number if you don't trust the BBC.

2.1 billion people officially considered Christian does not equate to 2.1 billion Christians. For example, I was christened Church of Scotland, as were most of my friends, and we are all included in that 2.1 billion Christians. But like I said I only have two or three friends who are accurately "Christians". The truth is, a large proportion of that 2.1 billion Christians are either non-religious or practice religious apathety - they vaguely believe in God, but have never even glanced at a bible and know very little about "their religion". Considering these people to be "Christians" is doctoring the figures on a massive scale.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by the truth

I 100% disagree entirely. The word of Christ is all that matters. The fact a bunch of empire building mass murdering monarchies who carried out mass murder, torture, starvation, death camps, rapists and psychos use and pervert and corrupted everything, including their version fo patriotism, they perverted versions of religion, just as they corrupt the concept of democracy , science , sociology and many other facets of society ...doesn't make these subjects any less valid. Should we scrap science because of the atomic bomb? should we scrap democracy because democratic nations allowed evil scum like stalin, hitler , Mussolini to rise to power? no. we work with what weve got.....we learn from the mistakes, we try to capture the evil doers and punish them and we attempt to rewards the just, the smart and the hard working....does life always work out perfectly ? no. but that doesn't mean you throw out the baby with the bathwater and certainly not throw out the timeless lessons of Christ

I'm not saying there aren't good messages in the bible or lesons to be learned; in fact, I said in my original post that the (truly) Christians friends that I do have are goodhearted, charitable people who I would say are clearly "better" for their faith. Not only that, I envy them that faith. It centres them, it grounds them, they have a sort of stability and an an immunity to chaos that I would love to experience.

However, I understand too much about the history and politics of organised religion to ever find that. It holds and teaches some wonderful lessons but it doesn't and never has made any sort of reasonable sense. It's a nice dream, in a world of countless nice dreams, but the truth is, it takes either indocrination from birth or traumatic experience to reach that level of belief. I didn't have the former, and I truly hope to never experience the latter.

[Niall]

Originally Posted by the truth

The Church is not intolerant, it has beliefs and written scriptures that go back 2 millennia ....But it has compromised and we thankfully see gay people and women bishops now....the positives from the Church are simply enormous as they bring communities together, help feed and clothe the hungry and the charity and missionary work helps millions worldwide

Coming from a Catholic upbringing I don't agree one bit. Women are still discriminated against at all levels of the clergy, and don't even get me started on how they treat LGBT people (granted Pope Francis made some positive remarks, but it wasn't exactly a firm step forward either). Not to mention the fact that the very same organisation until three years ago, still promoted unprotected sex despite AIDS being a huge issue for a plethora of countries.

So in my opinion, the Church may have come a substantial way, but it hasn't come far enough. There's a hell of a lot more it could stand to do to improve itself.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Niall

Coming from a Catholic upbringing I don't agree one bit. Women are still discriminated against at all levels of the clergy, and don't even get me started on how they treat LGBT people (granted Pope Francis made some positive remarks, but it wasn't exactly a firm step forward either). Not to mention the fact that the very same organisation until three years ago, still promoted unprotected sex despite the AIDS being a huge issue for a plethora of countries.

So in my opinion, the Church may have come a substantial way, but it hasn't come far enough. There's a hell of a lot more it could stand to do to improve itself.

Youre a Catholic and I agree with you on these facets of the religion , they need to keep on sorting that out, Im a Methodist so we veer off a little on these matters. I am 100% in favour of women , disabled, black, whatever Bishops, priests etc etc etc I also abhor the promotion of unprotected sex, yet another thing Christ did not teach.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not saying there aren't good messages in the bible or lesons to be learned; in fact, I said in my original post that the (truly) Christians friends that I do have are goodhearted, charitable people who I would say are clearly "better" for their faith. Not only that, I envy them that faith. It centres them, it grounds them, they have a sort of stability and an an immunity to chaos that I would love to experience.

However, I understand too much about the history and politics of organised religion to ever find that. It holds and teaches some wonderful lessons but it doesn't and never has made any sort of reasonable sense. It's a nice dream, in a world of countless nice dreams, but the truth is, it takes either indocrination from birth or traumatic experience to reach that level of belief. I didn't have the former, and I truly hope to never experience the latter.

Im not at that level of unquestioning belief in every word. Nor have I suffered any major trauma or indoctrination nor do I think for a moment the majority of the 2.1 billion Christians have either. I was merely inspired by great people and the Bible and Christ himself.

[T*]

I am an athiest but as much as I like you arista, you can't go around saying things like "Utter bliss"

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Cuda

I am an athiest but as much as I like you arista, you can't go around saying things like "Utter bliss"

I know its a plain unpleasant. Out of curiosity and in the spirit of open mindedness, whats your belief in terms of the world, the universe, death , morality, theology, the scriptures, etc

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

Christianity was NOT created to control the masses, if anything it rebels against the monarchies and fights the power

I didn't say it was... I suggested the KJV version was is all, i'm getting right into theology thanks to this thread.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I didn't say it was... I suggested the KJV version was is all, i'm getting right into theology thanks to this thread.

which bits from the KJV are you referring to?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

It hasn't been a pagan festival for hundreds of years... You're surely not suggesting that non-believers are celebrating the ancient ritual? Don't see many people out making bonfires on 21st December... or adhering to any other pagan rites. They're worshiping mostly at the alter of consumerism, picking and choosing the bits of the Christian festival that they like most. The presents, the carols... the schmaltz. It seems a little disingenuous for those same people to be celebrating the reported and of Christianity.

You seem to be suggesting that Christians deserve to be ridiculed and chastised because they once burned witches. That's not your serious suggestion, surely. And on that point, I'm not sure witches were burned in the UK, I think they were mostly hanged... but that's a whole other discussion.

All I'm saying is, if you're an atheist, good luck to you, that's your affair.. But don't make it your mission to prove people of faith wrong. No one can prove what faith is... that's why it's called faith. Perhaps just allow people to express their faith freely without all the iconoclasts turning out to knock them down.

Originally Posted by Livia

Because taking organised religion seriously is impossible for you, that doesn't mean that the faith of religious people is wrong. Comparing God to Spiderman is typical of the smart-arse, athiestic ridicule that non-believers think they have a right to throw at people of faith.

If you have no faith, that's your thing. I'm not going to laugh at you and I'm certainly not going to try to convert you... I respect your belief. And yet, you feel free, more than that, you feel entitled to laugh at me?

I also feel quite insulted when non-believers sum up faith by saying that people follow a religion because of "fear of death, fear of loss, fear of the unknown, a sense of belonging..." You have no faith, so what would you know about why people are religious? How about if I sum up all non-believers as being too shallow to truly comprehend what faith is? That'd be really insulting and ignorant of me wouldn't it. Yet it's the same thing as you trying to sum up why I am religious without knowing the first thing about either my religion or about me.

I'm not sure how you decided that for three decades, Christmas hasn't been a Christian festival. I think the 2 billion Christians in the world might disagree with you on that point.

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I'm surprised we are even allowed to call it Christmas anymore, Christmas has been sacrificed upon the alter of Political correctness and now it is called Winterval and the cards we send out are now called Holiday cards.

In fact the term "Happy Holidays" is now very prevalent. I'm surprised there isn't a Christian backlash as the last time I checked (I could be wrong) Great Britain was a Christian country with the Churches of England/Scotland/Ireland & Wales.

We seem to bend over backwards to accommodate other minority religions but allow the dilution of the official Christian faith in the process.

I would like to see Christmas celebrated as Christmas with the return of Christmas cards showing Baby Jesus, Joseph and Mary not some watered down snowscape with a few bits of holly and a yulelog......!!!!!

Originally Posted by Niamh.

We could just change the name to Xmas

Originally Posted by Livia

Stop making trouble Niamh, or I'll come over there...

Originally Posted by Niamh.

..for Xmas dinner? No problem

[Kizzy]

All of it.... It's chopped and shaped to within an inch of it's life. Like you say the monarchy hijacked religion re wrote the bible for their own ends to make the people meek, humble and subserviant.

[MTVN]

But it was also the monarchy who introduced the Bible in English to this country for the first time under Henry VIII

[the truth]

Originally Posted by MTVN

But it was also the monarchy who introduced the Bible in English to this country for the first time under Henry VIII

They also burned down all the churches when a greedy king decided he wanted loads of wives, they also chased down and tortured those who attempted to write a Welsh version....Lovely people....Just the type who Christ preached against. The monarchy have disfigured the meaning of everything, even the unearned "war" medals on the duke of edinburghs chest are an insult to real war heroes

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

All of it.... It's chopped and shaped to within an inch of it's life. Like you say the monarchy hijacked religion re wrote the bible for their own ends to make the people meek, humble and subserviant.

Ive read various versions of the Bible and online you can get a variety of interpretations....None of it has ever made me or most Christians I know subvervient to the monarchy or the power. Nor has it radicalised anyone I have ever met....Mind you Im a Methodist which is generally considered a less extreme interpretation if you like. But I agree that it can potentially be used as a weapon by the powers that be against the weak minded. The monarchy have never been constrained by Christian morality or human decency. They have simply carried on butchering their way across the globe. revolting people. By the real heart of Christ's teachings are not about subservience , theyre about love, honour, justice, truth and rebelling against the power.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by the truth

They also burned down all the churches when a greedy king decided he wanted loads of wives, they also chased down and tortured those who attempted to write a Welsh version....Lovely people....Just the type who Christ preached against. The monarchy have disfigured the meaning of everything, even the unearned "war" medals on the duke of edinburghs chest are an insult to real war heroes

'The monarchy' and it's relation to religion is not a static and unchanging thing, the relationship and attitude towards the church has varied hugely in the last few hundred years. That's my point, that you can't just reduce it down to monarchy hijacking christianity or the bible. Like you might consider Henry VIII to have been completely against christianity, he considered himself the most devoutly religous monarch in Europe who had God's backing in everything he did. He might have closed down monasteries to increase royal power but also because a lot of them were dens of vice and corruption and considered remnants of the papacy's grip on the country which God didn't approve of etc. etc.

Kind of raises the whole point about how open to interpretation Christianity and religion is

[the truth]

Originally Posted by MTVN

'The monarchy' and it's relation to religion is not a static and unchanging thing, the relationship and attitude towards the church has varied hugely in the last few hundred years. That's my point, that you can't just reduce it down to monarchy hijacking christianity or the bible. Like you might consider Henry VIII to have been completely against christianity, he considered himself the most devoutly religous monarch in Europe who had God's backing in everything he did. He might have closed down monasteries to increase royal power but also because a lot of them were dens of vice and corruption and considered remnants of the papacy's grip on the country which God didn't approve of etc. etc.

Kind of raises the whole point about how open to interpretation Christianity and religion is

It raises nothing of the kind. sorry no offence that's just fickle thinking.
The monarchy are scum. They stand for nothing at all.
Their interpretation of Jesus is 100% irrelevant....
Even moreso in this day and age

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by the truth

It raises nothing of the kind. sorry no offence that's just fickle thinking.
The monarchy are scum. They stand for nothing at all.
Their interpretation of Jesus is 100% irrelevant....
Even moreso in this day and age

Well ok then

[the truth]

On a happier note as Christmas approaches I hope you enjoy this song from the 1980's to get you in the mood.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShN8UIk5-mw

[Kizzy]

I appreciate that initially the KJV contained all books including the Apocrypha, but took it out in 1885.. why? My guess is it didn't fit with the sensibilities of the time.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I appreciate that initially the KJV contained all books including the Apocrypha, but took it out in 1885.. why? My guess is it didn't fit with the sensibilities of the time.

Thankfully great men like anuerin bevan saw through the pro monarchy revised parts and fought for healthcare and social housing for the poor sick and vulnerable etc

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by the truth

Im not at that level of unquestioning belief in every word. Nor have I suffered any major trauma or indoctrination nor do I think for a moment the majority of the 2.1 billion Christians have either. I was merely inspired by great people and the Bible and Christ himself.

I can understand that but - and I say this without it intending to be insulting or belittling those with faith - can we not be inspired by entirely fictional characters and stories whilst still accepting them as fiction? I know I have been, many times. Furthermore, even assuming some truth in many of the bible stories but no literal truth in the existence of a God / true miracles, are the HUMAN stories of people doing good and great things (in the name of God or otherwise) not just as inspiring without the supernatural element? Are they not even MORE inspiring?

That's something I struggle to get my head around. Is a person doing good, charitable, wonderful things for others just because they feel inclined to do so, and making moral choices to do no harm to others purely through empathy - with no watchful God, no promise of Heaven, no threat of Hell - not more impressive than when a someone does it fully believing that there is a system of reward and punishment at work?