[Crimson Dynamo]

• 94-year-old former death camp officer sentenced to four years behind bars
• Found guilty of being accessory to murder of 300,000 Jews in Auschwitz
• He had accepted moral responsibility but denied committing any crime
• Sentence will likely mean Groening, who is in poor health, will die in jail

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3fwyL0Zxv

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But the question is

As a 21 year old German soldier, what could he have done differently?

[user104658]

He could have refused and then he would probably have been shot.

I'm not going to pass too much comment because I don't know the ins and outs of this specific case (maybe he went above and beyond the call of duty), but in general, my opinion is that the only people who should be considered guilty of war crimes are those giving the orders, not those following them.

Otherwise every soldier that is or ever has been to war is a criminal.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

He could have refused and then he would probably have been shot.

I'm not going to pass too much comment because I don't know the ins and outs of this specific case, but in general, my opinion is that the only people who should be considered guilty of war crimes are those giving the orders, not those following them.

Otherwise every soldier that is or ever has been to war is a criminal.

He would have been sent to the Russian front or later in the war, shot

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

He could have refused and then he would probably have been shot.

I'm not going to pass too much comment because I don't know the ins and outs of this specific case (maybe he went above and beyond the call of duty), but in general, my opinion is that the only people who should be considered guilty of war crimes are those giving the orders, not those following them.

Otherwise every soldier that is or ever has been to war is a criminal.

Strong, thought provoking post, this is exactly what my Grandfather said as to these trials too.
Good post again TS.

[MTVN]

One of those top comments puts it well saying he was 'Convicted for the crime of outliving those who actually committed the crimes'

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

One of those top comments puts it well saying he was 'Convicted for the crime of outliving those who actually committed the crimes'

100% agree with that statement too.

[arista]

4 Years

He may get out alive

[user104658]

Originally Posted by arista

4 Years

He may get out alive

I don't think it particularly matters, he's 94 and has lived his life. Whether he's guilty or not this is a bit of a charade... Not about justice, more of a stunt really.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think it particularly matters, he's 94 and has lived his life. Whether he's guilty or not this is a bit of a charade... Not about justice, more of a stunt really.

There are survivors of the Holocaust who might disagree with you.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

He had a good, long life, a family, love, a home... all the things the people he helped murder would never have. Now he's going to die peacefully in a warm secure place.

Let's not forget who made the Nazi Party in control in Germany.

I can't believe there is sympathy for this man on here.

I don't think it's really about sympathy, I for one don't have "sympathy" for him and couldn't give a stuff what happens to him. It doesn't matter. He's old. Most people don't reach the age of 94 at all so whether they kill him, let him die in jail, whatever, it's all sort of redundant... for better or worse, he's already had his life. So no, it's not about sympathy, more about pointing out the futility of it.

Originally Posted by Livia

There are survivors of the Holocaust who might disagree with you.

You're contradicting your own post there, though. "He had a good, long life, a family, love, a home... all the things the people he helped murder would never have. Now he's going to die peacefully in a warm secure place."

So, by your own thinking, does this feel like justice? Or even vengeance? He can go to jail and sit in a room for a couple of years until he dies. Or he could stay out of jail and... err... sit in a room for a couple of years until he dies. Because he's 94. So I stand by what I said: it's not about justice or about this man, it's a stunt, a charade, perhaps to make some sort of point, or as the article itself says; "The historic significance of the trial of Oskar Groening, and the opportunity it provides for to educate a generation that is all too distant from the horrors of the Holocaust."

In a couple of decades, WW2 and the Holocaust will be entirely outwith living memory. It sort of feels like anything that happens now is little more than an attempt to bookend history... a cry of "Lest we forget", perhaps, or more likely, purely for appearences.

[Tom4784]

Terrible, if he was actually giving the orders then I can understand but he was just a monkey, why punish the monkey for the organ grinder's crimes?

Will every still living German soldier that served during WW2 also be made to be punished for simply following orders? It's dumb, illogical and it isn't justice, it's emotionally driven spite. It's just punishing someone for following orders because the truly evil people are already dead.

[Livia]

He had a good, long life, a family, love, a home... all the things the people he helped murder would never have. Now he's going to die peacefully in a warm secure place.

Let's not forget who made the Nazi Party in control in Germany.

I can't believe there is sympathy for this man on here.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

He had a good, long life, a family, love, a home... all the things the people he helped murder would never have. Now he's going to die peacefully in a warm secure place.

Let's not forget who made the Nazi Party in control in Germany.

I can't believe there is sympathy for this man on here.

Where does it end? Should we round up all the still living Germans from that era and try them for allowing the Nazis to get into power too? We can't get the people in charge so let's get the people who lived in that era instead, they couldn't do anything to change what was happening but their inaction is obviously an admission of complicity.

He was basically admin, he was a glorified receptionist by the sounds of things. Blame the people who gave the orders, put them on trial. Going after people who likely didn't have a choice in the matter is just pointless and a waste.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Where does it end? Should we round up all the still living Germans from that era and try them for allowing the Nazis to get into power too? We can't get the people in charge so let's get the people who lived in that era instead, they couldn't do anything to change what was happening but their inaction is obviously an admission of complicity.

He was basically admin, he was a glorified receptionist by the sounds of things. Blame the people who gave the orders, put them on trial. Going after people who likely didn't have a choice in the matter is just pointless and a waste.

Admin... he counted the money taken from Jews before they were gassed. You don't know that he didn't have a choice, that's just what you've chosen to believe. I don't think it's pointless, but maybe I have more invested in it that you?

And no, we shouldn't track down people and prosecute them for being Nazis, but if they were complicit in the annihilation of 6 million people because they were Jews, and not just Jews, gays, the disabled, gypsies... then yes, I want to see them punished.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

Admin... he counted the money taken from Jews before they were gassed. You don't know that he didn't have a choice, that's just what you've chosen to believe. I don't think it's pointless, but maybe I have more invested in it that you?

And no, we shouldn't track down people and prosecute them for being Nazis, but if they were complicit in the annihilation of 6 million people because they were Jews, and not just Jews, gays, the disabled, gypsies... then yes, I want to see them punished.

I'm just going on what's written in the story but it sounded, like a lot of people in WW2 Germany, he was just following orders. If there's proof to say otherwise than fair enough but if not then I don't think he should be punished as, like TS said, it's futile and it's not justice.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I'm just going on what's written in the story but it sounded, like a lot of people in WW2 Germany, he was just following orders. If there's proof to say otherwise than fair enough but if not then I don't think he should be punished as, like TS said, it's futile and it's not justice.

The court found him guilty, so I would assume there is sufficient evidence. They are professionals and would consider things like that. Unless there was a vested interest, and all of the people in the court would more than likely be checked for that, there would be very little room for bias.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Livia

Admin... he counted the money taken from Jews before they were gassed. You don't know that he didn't have a choice, that's just what you've chosen to believe. I don't think it's pointless, but maybe I have more invested in it that you?

And no, we shouldn't track down people and prosecute them for being Nazis, but if they were complicit in the annihilation of 6 million people because they were Jews, and not just Jews, gays, the disabled, gypsies... then yes, I want to see them punished.

No sympathy for the old bastard at all,he is old now and looks harmless,his deeds were abhorrent,and he needs punishing even if it is a bit lame.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Livia

He had a good, long life, a family, love, a home... all the things the people he helped murder would never have. Now he's going to die peacefully in a warm secure place.

Let's not forget who made the Nazi Party in control in Germany.

I can't believe there is sympathy for this man on here.

It's rare you'll find me agreeing with you.. but in this case, I think you are right. This man has clearly failed to prevent or even oppose the genocide of the Jewish people, and for that he deserves punishment regardless of how long ago it was or how old he is.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

It's rare you'll find me agreeing with you.. but in this case, I think you are right. This man has clearly failed to prevent or even oppose the genocide of the Jewish people, and for that he deserves punishment regardless of how long ago it was or how old he is.

People who opposed the Nazi regime had a tendency of being killed and their families would most likely meet a similar fate. What could he (or anyone) have done?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

People who opposed the Nazi regime had a tendency of being killed and their families would most likely meet a similar fate. What could he (or anyone) have done?

It's that old cognitive dissonance rearing it's head again; people like to think that if they were in the same situation they would retain their morals, THEY would refuse, THEY would resist, THEY could never do something so terrible no matter what the consequences of standing up and saying "no".

It's a lie. They would keep their mouths shut, put on a uniform like everyone else, and kill whoever they were told to kill.

People can't or won't believe that and so we have monsters.

[Samuel.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's that old cognitive dissonance rearing it's head again; people like to think that if they were in the same situation they would retain their morals, THEY would refuse, THEY would resist, THEY could never do something so terrible no matter what the consequences of standing up and saying "no".

It's a lie. They would keep their mouths shut, put on a uniform like everyone else, and kill whoever they were told to kill.

People can't or won't believe that and so we have monsters.

Very true.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's that old cognitive dissonance rearing it's head again; people like to think that if they were in the same situation they would retain their morals, THEY would refuse, THEY would resist, THEY could never do something so terrible no matter what the consequences of standing up and saying "no".

It's a lie. They would keep their mouths shut, put on a uniform like everyone else, and kill whoever they were told to kill.

People can't or won't believe that and so we have monsters.

.....the absolute truth of it is that some people would do whatever was asked of them and some people wouldn't do it, which is why through history we have people reacting differently in extreme and extraordinary situations...and by your own reasoning then, you have no idea how you would feel yourself about his sentencing unless you were personally touched in your life by his being a 'small cog'...would you still think it was pointless after such a long time that he be answerable for his part...in as much certainty that I can ever have of anything in life, I know that a life of living and knowledge of being a part of that would be far worse for me than a nothingness of death...

...everyone in the Nazi regime was answerable to Hitler so if no one 'could help' what their role was, then no one was answerable to any war crime, even if they let the gas into gas chambers themselves, surely..?...but that's not the case is it because every part of that cog played a part in mass genocide...Oskar Gröning's part and what he was 'forced' to do/'had no choice' was only over for a few years of his life, he's had over 70yrs since then (and through his own free choice..)...to have made himself answerable and if he had done that, then maybe at 94yrs of age, he would be a free man and with his family...I've read up a little bit about him and after the war he took full advantage of his position in the Nazi Party to gain back his old job and to prosper from there, refusing to acknowledge anything he did even to his own family...he chose to 'hide' and to forget/his own free choice and all for his own self preservation...nothing 'given back' to a race of Jews in his conscience for anything he did in his war years....no signs of 'I'm sorry..'....


..I'd like to think that this sentencing is not just the court's final bits of putting things right but an acknowledgement that he could not be left unanswerable and he could not go without some punishment, regardless of his age because as I say, he very much had a choice through his life of accepting his accountability without it being forced on him...and of course he's not a monster, he's every bit a human being which is why also we should never forget, we should never forget what some humans are capable of and we should never forget that they feel they can escape accountability because they are old...

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

It's rare you'll find me agreeing with you.. but in this case, I think you are right. This man has clearly failed to prevent or even oppose the genocide of the Jewish people, and for that he deserves punishment regardless of how long ago it was or how old he is.

what would you have had him do?

[arista]

"In a couple of decades, WW2 and the Holocaust will be entirely outwith living memory. "

Maybe,
but not the two Atomic Bombs dropped Fast on Japan
in August 1945
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic...a_and_Nagasaki


Thats a benchmark for the Next Nuke War

[user104658]

Originally Posted by arista

"In a couple of decades, WW2 and the Holocaust will be entirely outwith living memory. "

Maybe,
but not the two Atomic Bombs dropped Fast on Japan
in August 1945
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic...a_and_Nagasaki


Thats a benchmark for the Next Nuke War

By "outwith living memory" I simply mean that anyone who was alive and old enough to remember the time will be dead. This applies to the nuking of Japan, too, as with all things. In a few decades, no one will remember it. We will know it happened, we will have history books, we will remember our grandparents talking about it, but no one will be alive who can say; "Yes, I remember it, I remember the news breaking, I remember the headlines the next day."

Also, off topic but, the Japan A-bombs are hardly a benchmark for the "Next" nuclear war (i.e. the end of the world). See the spoiler below. To scale, the tiny puff of smoke at the bottom is a 15KT nuclear blast, the same size as the Hiroshima A-bomb. The main image is the size of the blast of the largest tested United States warhead.

Spoiler:

http://www.nucleardarkness.org/inclu..._bombs_750.jpg