[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Culture is made up of many things, religion, morals, traditions. Clearly India and Pakistan have very similar cultures eventhough the main religions in the two countries are different.

Over 80% of Portuguese people are catholic and abortion is legal there so generalising laws on what religion the majority of a country is, is not always accurate

India and Pakistan have entirely different cultures. If I had to be a woman in either, I would choose India, even thought their own record on women's rights is questionable. Anyhoo, killing a woman in Pakistan is nothing. If we made a thread every time one was murdered for being raped, or for "shaming" her family, or for some other excuse people seem to be coming up with, then we'd have no room for other threads. The simple fact is that Islam rules Pakistan, and parts of Islam are sick.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Doesn't that depend on the teachings of the religion and whether the country allows religion into the laws of the state?

hang on a second now, we're veering off track a little bit here. These court systems aren't even legally binding, the actual legal justice system in Pakistan was the one who stopped this honor killing from happening and is protecting the girl remember?

The culture of Panchayats is there out of tradition of "elders" in villages having power over people and especially in this specific case a father abusing that power to protect his son

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

India and Pakistan have entirely different cultures. If I had to be a woman in either, I would choose India, even thought their own record on women's rights is questionable. Anyhoo, killing a woman in Pakistan is nothing. If we made a thread every time one was murdered for being raped, or for "shaming" her family, or for some other excuse people seem to be coming up with, then we'd have no room for other threads. The simple fact is that Islam rules Pakistan, and parts of Islam are sick.

So why have the authorities arrested the man involved and given the girl protection?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

So why have the authorities arrested the man involved and given the girl protection?

Possibly because she had the support of her father.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

India and Pakistan have entirely different cultures. If I had to be a woman in either, I would choose India, even thought their own record on women's rights is questionable. Anyhoo, killing a woman in Pakistan is nothing. If we made a thread every time one was murdered for being raped, or for "shaming" her family, or for some other excuse people seem to be coming up with, then we'd have no room for other threads. The simple fact is that Islam rules Pakistan, and parts of Islam are sick.

They're very similar

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

hang on a second now, we're veering off track a little bit here. These court systems aren't even legally binding, the actual legal justice system in Pakistan was the one who stopped this honor killing from happening and is protecting the girl remember?

The culture of Panchayats is there out of tradition of "elders" in villages having power over people and especially in this specific case a father abusing that power to protect his son

Sharia law isn't binding in the UK and yet people can still go to sharia councils and settle disputes and even divorce.

I understand all the nitpicking but that's exactly what it is. Pakistan is an Islamic country. That means that Islam has an influence in all aspects of society, including councils.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Possibly because she had the support of her father.

but killing a girl is nothing there

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

but killing a girl is nothing there

You're mistaking me for Livia I think. Please don't ascribe someone elses words to me.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

They're very similar

Not if you're a cow.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Sharia law isn't binding in the UK and yet people can still go to them and settle disputes and even divorce.

I understand all the nitpicking but that's exactly what it is. Pakistan is an Islamic country. That means that Islam has an influence in all aspects of society, including councils.

My point is Pakistan is an Islamic country and India is a Hindu country and they both have these councils.....

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Not if you're a cow.

Well if I were a Pakistani cow I would certainly be looking for refugee status in India that's for sure

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well if I were a Pakistani cow I would certainly be looking for refugee status in India that's for sure

Me too.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

My point is Pakistan is an Islamic country and India is a Hindu country and they both have these councils.....

That doesn't mean they are the same councils, run under the same rules and laws. Though both countries have terrible records with regard women, and I don't think religion in India is innocent either. People get beaten to death there for having meat in their freezer that may or may not be cow. If they are lucky enough to have a freezer.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

That doesn't mean they are the same councils, run under the same rules and laws.

I just posted a link a few posts back of very similar sounding punishments by some Indian councils.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I just posted a link a few posts back of very similar sounding punishments by some Indian councils.

England is a similar country to Ireland. And yet it's completely different.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

England is a similar country to Ireland. And yet it's completely different.

Ok but I still showed you examples of punishments handed out by Indian councils that were very similar to this one in the OP

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Ok but I still showed you examples of punishments handed out by Indian councils that were very similar to this one in the OP

And I said that I don't think India's main religion is all that great either. Though if it had been India mentioned I probably wouldn't have assumed it was related to Hinduism because it's a secular state.

However Islam is the second largest religion in India. It's not far fetched that both countries might have adopted similar customs.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

And I said that I don't think India's main religion is all that great either. Though if it had been India mentioned I probably wouldn't have assumed it was related to Hinduism because it's a secular state.

The law of the Islamic country is protecting the girl but you're blaming Islam for the council "convicting" her instead of the alleged rapists father........

[Niamh.]

anyway, i feel we're going round in circles now.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The law of the Islamic country is protecting the girl but you're blaming Islam for the council "convicting" her instead of the alleged rapists father........

Is it really? Or is it supporting her fathers complaint? What will her future be? A payment made usually and the man will go free. Will she ever be able to live back in the same village without shame and retribution? How many other girls does this happen to where they aren't supported by their fathers?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Is it really? Or is it supporting her fathers complaint? What will her future be? A payment made usually and the man will go free. Will she ever be able to live back in the same village without shame and retribution? How many other girls does this happen to where they aren't supported by their fathers?

Why are you speaking to me like I agree with all this, I totally disagree with that kind of culture, all that I was pointing out was that it was a culture

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Why are you speaking to me like I agree with all this, I totally disagree with that kind of culture, all that I was pointing out was that it was a culture

And I'm trying to point out that culture and state are impossibly tangled with religion. Whether interpreted correctly or not, the religion is used as justification for systemic gender subordination.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

And I'm trying to point out that culture and state are impossibly tangled with religion.

You have failed to do that imo because you just stated that if it happened in India (and it does alot going by examples I posted a link to) you would not blame religion but here you do eventhough that list of questions you just asked me (Is it really? Or is it supporting her fathers complaint? What will her future be? A payment made usually and the man will go free. Will she ever be able to live back in the same village without shame and retribution? How many other girls does this happen to where they aren't supported by their fathers?) could just as easily be applied to India

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Withano

Actually I love willfully sleeping with people at gunpoint, and I completely recommend it for everybody. Not doing so would make me racist, obviously.

Nit sure what you are slavering about now but can you use the word allegedly now and again please.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

You have failed to do that imo because you just stated that if it happened in India (and it does alot going by examples I posted a link to) you would not blame religion but here you do eventhough that list of questions you just asked me (Is it really? Or is it supporting her fathers complaint? What will her future be? A payment made usually and the man will go free. Will she ever be able to live back in the same village without shame and retribution? How many other girls does this happen to where they aren't supported by their fathers?) could just as easily be applied to India

No I said "Though if it had been India mentioned I probably wouldn't have assumed it was related to Hinduism because it's a secular state."