[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

So would you be happy if your daughter went off with two men she had only just met?

I'm not very comfortable speaking about my daughter in this context tbqh but it certainly wouldn't cross my mind in this situation because it would come across like I was blaming her instead of the rapist.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I'm not very comfortable speaking about my daughter in this context tbqh but it certainly wouldn't cross my mind in this situation because it would come across like I was blaming her instead of the rapist.

I guess the question is though (and yeah I hate imagining my own kids in these scenarios, too) not how would you react if something DID happen to them but... If nothing happened? Like you know they're home safe and sound and nothing bad happened, and then their friend is like "She went off with random people in a car at one point". Like even if those people were actually totally on the level... I'd still be a bit like "Wtf why would you do that?"

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Smithy

Basically Niamh, the sheriff is blaming the victim

Thanks for you input smithy, I'm saying if my daughter went off with two men I would pissed of that she could be so irresponsible.

[user104658]

I don't know, there's a difference between victim blaming and pointing out the need for awareness of safety - which I think is what sheriff might ham-fistedly be trying to get at.

If someone is attacked, then the guilty party is the attacker. There's no question about that part. They are criminals with no respect for other humans, and fully deserve to be punished for that.

But aside from that it's important to recognise that those people are out there. They exist, and with the best will in the world, they will sadly always exist... There's no getting around that. And with that in mind, it IS important for people to be aware of risks and keep themselves safe. It IS important that young girls be wary of going home with strange men, it IS important to tell our sons that it's a bad idea to walk home through the roughest part of town at 2am. That's not about "blaming them" if they are attacked... Just about pointing out that the risks are very real.

Or, I suppose, remembering that just because something SHOULDN'T happen, doesn't mean it WON'T happen, and living life as if the world is as it should be (safe, respectful) instead of how it actually is (chaotic and sometimes ****ing scary) is ill advised.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't know, there's a difference between victim blaming and pointing out the need for awareness of safety - which I think is what sheriff might ham-fistedly be trying to get at.

If someone is attacked, then the guilty party is the attacker. There's no question about that part. They are criminals with no respect for other humans, and fully deserve to be punished for that.

But aside from that it's important to recognise that those people are out there. They exist, and with the best will in the world, they will sadly always exist... There's no getting around that. And with that in mind, it IS important for people to be aware of risks and keep themselves safe. It IS important that young girls be wary of going home with strange men, it IS important to tell our sons that it's a bad idea to walk home through the roughest part of town at 2am. That's not about "blaming them" if they are attacked... Just about pointing out that the risks are very real.

Or, I suppose, remembering that just because something SHOULDN'T happen, doesn't mean it WON'T happen, and living life as if the world is as it should be (safe, respectful) instead of how it actually is (chaotic and sometimes ****ing scary) is ill advised.

Of course but it just annoys me that rape or sexual assault seems to be the only crime where that's constantly pointed out after the fact and therefore comes across as blaming the victim

[Tom4784]

Sheriff, you pretty much embody the reason why reports and conviction on rape are so low. Why would anyone want to come forward when they'll be met with countless people with attitudes like yours?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Sheriff, you pretty much embody the reason why reports and conviction on rape are so low. Why would anyone want to come forward when they'll be met with countless people with attitudes like yours?

If people are being mocking / aggressive, or suggesting the perpetrators don't deserve punishment for this reason, then I agree, but I also think it should be possible to point out risky behaviour whilst still sympathising with the victim. The problem otherwise is that you are implying that "this ISN'T risky" which makes others less likely to consider it a risk in future.

And again... It clearly IS a risk. It shouldn't be one, rapists shouldn't exist, but it is, and they do, and always will. Shouldn't happen doesn't = won't happen, or even is unlikely to happen.

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

If people are being mocking / aggressive, or suggesting the perpetrators don't deserve punishment for this reason, then I agree, but I also think it should be possible to point out risky behaviour whilst still sympathising with the victim. The problem otherwise is that you are implying that "this ISN'T risky" which makes others less likely to consider it a risk in future.

And again... It clearly IS a risk. It shouldn't be one, rapists shouldn't exist, but it is, and they do, and always will. Shouldn't happen doesn't = won't happen, or even is unlikely to happen.

Thanks ts.

[Cherie]

I guess the issue here is that they weren’t “strangers” as such and at 19 she was maybe a bit starsruck, she didn’t travel back to the house on her own as other females were going as well, so in terms of risk it wasn’t up there wth going home on your own with two joe bloggs

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

If people are being mocking / aggressive, or suggesting the perpetrators don't deserve punishment for this reason, then I agree, but I also think it should be possible to point out risky behaviour whilst still sympathising with the victim. The problem otherwise is that you are implying that "this ISN'T risky" which makes others less likely to consider it a risk in future.

And again... It clearly IS a risk. It shouldn't be one, rapists shouldn't exist, but it is, and they do, and always will. Shouldn't happen doesn't = won't happen, or even is unlikely to happen.

There's risk in everything, we don't say 'well, this person got murdered but he didn't think of the risks before he got killed so...'

Like Niamh said, she was young and starstruck. She wasn't just going off with random strangers, she was going off with well known people and she probably felt safer for it. The problem here isn't her lack of judgement but the fact that these people abused the trust she had in them, as misplaced as it might be.

Rape goes unreported and unpunished far too much because most victims don't want to be put on trial when they are already in a vulnerable position. Even mentioning the risks she took takes blame away from her attackers. The courts, in these cases, need to focus less on the victim and how they can blame her for what happened and more on establishing whether consent was given or if the victim was even in a position to give consent.

Everything else is just noise.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

There's risk in everything, we don't say 'well, this person got murdered but he didn't think of the risks before he got killed so...'

Like Niamh said, she was young and starstruck. She wasn't just going off with random strangers, she was going off with well known people and she probably felt safer for it. The problem here isn't her lack of judgement but the fact that these people abused the trust she had in them, as misplaced as it might be.

Tbf I've kind of veered off into talking about this sort of situation in general rather than this specific case, it sounds like a fairly unusual situation, and I also think the issue of real consent in general in these situations becomes quite murky - people who are "starstruck" or if it's with an individual who holds some power, they might even verbally consent to something they don't actually want to do or are uncomfortable with, out of fear of what happens if they don't. Is that even real consent then? But how do you legislate for those issues?

Rape goes unreported and unpunished far too much because most victims don't want to be put on trial when they are already in a vulnerable position. Even mentioning the risks she took takes blame away from her attackers. The courts, in these cases, need to focus less on the victim and how they can blame her for what happened and more on establishing whether consent was given or if the victim was even in a position to give consent.

I do agree with that, there needs to be some sort of major overhaul of how sexual assault cases are put through the courts in general so that it's handled sensitively and considerately no matter what the outcome is. Victims privacy needs to be respected whether the accused is found guilty or otherwise, the potential damage to the mental health of a victim is absolutely massive, even if there is a conviction, and it's little wonder that people don't want to put themselves through it.

On the flipside - whether people want to believe it or not - there ARE false allegations made sometimes, and the lives of innocent people can be ruined off the back of them even if it all comes out. Mud sticks, so to speak.

If it was all handled with more of a sense of decency and privacy in the first place, many of those problems could be tackled.

[smudgie]

Friends and partners can rape you, more likely than a stranger I reckon.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The victims were 2 lads who got accused of rape falsely

Thank God we have decent law to stop their lives being ruined

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The victims were 2 lads who got accused of rape falsely

Thank God we have decent law to stop their lives being ruined

And thankfully enough of the trial was covered so people have seen just what kind of "lads" they are.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

And thankfully enough of the trial was covered so people have seen just what kind of "lads" they are.

yep, just because a rope says VIP it does not guarantee you a gentleman or a lady

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

yep, just because a rope says VIP it does not guarantee you a gentleman or a lady

Usually the opposite it seems, especially with sports stars, which is a shame really. Maybe inevitable though. Young people who have soared to fame and money (and with it power) very quickly and off of the back of a physical talent, not with brainpower. Leaves us with an awful lot of "lads" who believe themselves to be invincible and able to do whatever they want without consequences.

I guess cases like this, even with them not facing legal repercussions, at least send a message to other similarly minded individuals, that they are NOT invincible and can easily ruin their own careers at the very least with their actions. Which might stop as many girls ending up in, however you look at it, really dark situations like this one.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The victims were 2 lads who got accused of rape falsely

Thank God we have decent law to stop their lives being ruined

Work on coming up with better bait, this is weak.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Work on coming up with better bait, this is weak.

Yes and continually trying to shut down a debate by saying that again

is baiting


still as you are still a mod i doubt you care..

[Kizzy]

Is there any offence that won't be glossed over to save their careers?

[Tom4784]

Not a few pages back you were trying to shut me down by making out that I couldn't comment on the article without being in the courtroom. Keep track of what you post.

What you said was baiting, you know this is a sensitive topic, you know that we're talking about victim blaming yet you make a blatantly incendiary post making out that not guilty is the same as being falsely accused because you KNOW it'll get a reaction. It's what you do.

[thesheriff443]

I'm not blaming the victim in this case I'm saying she was reckless and so what If i was blaming her! I'm just as entitled to that opinion as anyone else's opinion.

As a parent I have raised my daughter to be aware of the dangers that are out there.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

I'm not blaming the victim in this case I'm saying she was reckless and so what If i was blaming her! I'm just as entitled to that opinion as anyone else's opinion.

As a parent I have raised my daughter to be aware of the dangers that are out there.

The victim blaming thing is a pretty common shut down tactic, its bog standard in "debates" like this. It usually means you are making good points tbh

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The victim blaming thing is a pretty common shut down tactic, its bog standard in "debates" like this. It usually means you are making good points tbh

Or... as seen here it was just actually victim blaming.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

I'm not blaming the victim in this case I'm saying she was reckless and so what If i was blaming her! I'm just as entitled to that opinion as anyone else's opinion.

As a parent I have raised my daughter to be aware of the dangers that are out there.

So what if you were?
Well the responsibility of the rape is always on the rapist. It is their crime and theirs alone no matter the actions of the victim.

Can you think the victim careless or irresponsible in putting themselves in harms way or leaving themselves vulnerable? Of course. Can they actually be blamed for the rape? No. Not at all.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Can you think the victim careless or irresponsible in putting themselves in harms way or leaving themselves vulnerable? Of course. Can they actually be blamed for the rape? No. Not at all.

Surely the issue there though, is that a lot of people would brand the former as the latter? i.e pointing out that someone has engaged in risky behaviour is seen as "victim blaming" when it isn't actually assigning blame in any way.