[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

There are experts on both sides so attempting to suggest expert advice is all against Brexit is not well informed or honest, whichever applies.

Can you offer proof of the main Remain leaders telling the voting public to disregard expert opinions they didn't like? I can't remember seeing anything like what Gove said from the Remain side.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You can't complain about 'fear-mongering' while ignoring the fallacies and fairy tales that formed the cornerstones of the Leave campaign. It's basically complaining about one cheap tactic just because the cheap tactic you backed wouldn't work twice in a row.

Every vote is democratic by nature, you can't just disavow things because they might not go your way. I voted Remain yet I wouldn't want a second vote to happen just because people who don't know what fact checking is believed in the lies of the Leave camp and now they regret it. Votes have consequences and people need to lie in the bed that they've made.

Don't get that argument all all, people get to review their vote every 5 years or so in a GL, they also get to boot in and out councils, there should be a vote on the final deal, a straight yes/no backed up by a load of lies on both sides should be up for review

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Don't get that argument all all, people get to review their vote every 5 years or so in a GL, they also get to boot in and out councils, there should be a vote on the final deal, a straight yes/no backed up by a load of lies on both sides should be up for review

You don't get it because you're applying my one off vote logic to recurring votes like Elections.

The public have had their say twice on Brexit, the first was whether or not it should happen and the second was the general election which basically turned into a 'which party do you want running Brexit' vote. If people don't get the Brexit they want then it's their own fault for voting poorly. We've known since before the election that Theresa May's government was weak yet people got suckered into voting for her because she repeated a slogan ad infinitum like she was a pokemon.

Remember that the original Referendum question was whether or not people wanted to leave or remain, it wasn't what kind of Brexit they wanted if we left. That would be determined by which party got voted into power and the people chose a wishy washy government who will likely be bowled over by the EU.

If we keep having referendums on whether we like the way Brexit is going then we'd have one every few months.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You don't get it because you're applying my one off vote logic to recurring votes like Elections.

The public have had their say twice on Brexit, the first was whether or not it should happen and the second was the general election which basically turned into a 'which party do you want running Brexit' vote. If people don't get the Brexit they want then it's their own fault for voting poorly. We've known since before the election that Theresa May's government was weak yet people got suckered into voting for her because she repeated a slogan ad infinitum like she was a pokemon.

Remember that the original Referendum question was whether or not people wanted to leave or remain, it wasn't what kind of Brexit they wanted if we left. That would be determined by which party got voted into power and the people chose a wishy washy government who will likely be bowled over by the EU.

If we keep having referendums on whether we like the way Brexit is going then we'd have one every few months.

The whole campaign was based on lies and presumptions from both sides, as an electorate we shouldn't accept that, run a clean campaign with facts not scaremongering then I will accept the result

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

The whole campaign was based on lies and presumptions from both sides, as an electorate we shouldn't accept that, run a clean campaign with facts not scaremongering then I will accept the result

It would be nice but it's not going to happen, neither the voters nor the politicians are interested in facts.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You can't complain about 'fear-mongering' while ignoring the fallacies and fairy tales that formed the cornerstones of the Leave campaign. It's basically complaining about one cheap tactic just because the cheap tactic you backed wouldn't work twice in a row.

Every vote is democratic by nature, you can't just disavow things because they might not go your way. I voted Remain yet I wouldn't want a second vote to happen just because people who don't know what fact checking is believed in the lies of the Leave camp and now they regret it. Votes have consequences and people need to lie in the bed that they've made.

See - this is why SD is such fun, your slant on who the liars were on the EU facts and figures is the POLAR opposite of mine.

And we will NEVER agree no matter how many posts we make.

[Maru]

So if the people voted in the UK to leave the EU, it's the people's fault(?) for voting the wrong way because the politicians won't do the job they've signed on to do?... No, that's not how it works at all... Don't post in SD. Call your rep. It's no-one elses business how you've decided to vote, much less why... if they have a problem with it, let them pound sand. When the politicians are fail to do their job, hold them accountable.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Maru

So if the people voted in the UK to leave the EU, it's the people's fault(?) for voting the wrong way because the politicians won't do the job they've signed on to do?... No, that's not how it works at all... Don't post in SD. Call your rep. It's no-one elses business how you've decided to vote, much less why... if they have a problem with it, let them pound sand. When the politicians are fail to do their job, hold them accountable.

Your job is to land this plane

I dont know how to land the plane

Sorry the passengers of this plane all voted, you must land the plane

I still dont know how

It is the will of the people

Im probably going to fail

NOT GOOD ENOUGH

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Withano

Your job is to land this plane

I dont know how to land the plane

Sorry the passengers of this plane all voted, you must land the plane

I still dont know how

It is the will of the people

Im probably going to fail

NOT GOOD ENOUGH

More like

"Land the plane..."

"It doesn't have wheels! We need to parachute out!"

"Land it..."

"It only has one wing! And no engines!"

"LAND THE DAMN PLANE"

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

More like

"Land the plane..."

"It doesn't have wheels! We need to parachute out!"

"Land it..."

"It only has one wing! And no engines!"

"LAND THE DAMN PLANE"

And you once lectured me on hyperbole.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

And you once lectured me on hyperbole.

"Land the damn spaceship!"

"She cannae take any more, captain!"

"Land goddamn it and phasers set to kill!"

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Maru

So if the people voted in the UK to leave the EU, it's the people's fault(?) for voting the wrong way because the politicians won't do the job they've signed on to do?... No, that's not how it works at all... Don't post in SD. Call your rep. It's no-one elses business how you've decided to vote, much less why... if they have a problem with it, let them pound sand. When the politicians are fail to do their job, hold them accountable.

We had the choice of whether to stay or go, we had the choice of who runs the show and we still voted to keep an incompetent government in place despite knowing how terrible they were. Of course it's the people's fault if they are unhappy with how things go because THEY are the ones who decided to leave, they are the ones who decided which party should handle Brexit.

The bit about 'contacting your rep' is all well and good but it's not realistic. The Tories are running things and they'll be running things for years until the next election at least, they don't give a **** what people think because the election is way off. It doesn't matter if people are happy with Brexit or not, the referendum was to decide whether to leave or not, not HOW we should leave. The only control we had over that was deciding which government should handle it and people chose a terrible party to do it.

Voters only have themselves to blame.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

We had the choice of whether to stay or go, we had the choice of who runs the show and we still voted to keep an incompetent government in place despite knowing how terrible they were. Of course it's the people's fault if they are unhappy with how things go because THEY are the ones who decided to leave, they are the ones who decided which party should handle Brexit.

The bit about 'contacting your rep' is all well and good but it's not realistic. The Tories are running things and they'll be running things for years until the next election at least, they don't give a **** what people think because the election is way off. It doesn't matter if people are happy with Brexit or not, the referendum was to decide whether to leave or not, not HOW we should leave. The only control we had over that was deciding which government should handle it and people chose a terrible party to do it.

Voters only have themselves to blame.

Blame for what exactly - do you have a crystal ball? Even the experts cannot agree on the outcome so how you profess to know is quite extraordinary!

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Blame for what exactly - do you have a crystal ball? Even the experts cannot agree on the outcome so how you profess to know is quite extraordinary!

I trust what's been said by a wide variety of experts on all sides, not just the ones I cherry pick to suit my opinion.

Very few experts have anything good to say when it comes to Brexit.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I trust what's been said by a wide variety of experts on all sides, not just the ones I cherry pick to suit my opinion.

Very few experts have anything good to say when it comes to Brexit.

Rubbish. There are plenty. And you talk of cherry-picking!

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

We had the choice of whether to stay or go, we had the choice of who runs the show and we still voted to keep an incompetent government in place despite knowing how terrible they were. Of course it's the people's fault if they are unhappy with how things go because THEY are the ones who decided to leave, they are the ones who decided which party should handle Brexit.

The bit about 'contacting your rep' is all well and good but it's not realistic. The Tories are running things and they'll be running things for years until the next election at least, they don't give a **** what people think because the election is way off. It doesn't matter if people are happy with Brexit or not, the referendum was to decide whether to leave or not, not HOW we should leave. The only control we had over that was deciding which government should handle it and people chose a terrible party to do it.

Voters only have themselves to blame.

With Corbyn and Abbott in opposition, the Tories will be 'running things' well into the 3rd Millenium.

As to 'Blame', I echo what Brillopad says - No One KNOWS for certain whether Brexit will be a positive or Negative for the UK.

I believe that if events were ALLOWED to take place WITHOUT the covert and sinister machinations and interference of the 'Illuminati' (for want of a better word) who WANT us to remain in the EU, then Brexit WILL only be beneficial for the UK.

That 'IF'is the key though because Brexiteers are up against a very powerful, very wealthy, very well organised, very well connected enemy who are aided indirectly by covert factions within the Labour Party who share the same 'Remain' objective though for different reasons.

Finally as poor as the Tories are proving to be - there is NO viable alternative because if Corbyn gets into power, all the complaints about the Tories will seem oh so petty.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

With Corbyn and Abbott in opposition, the Tories will be 'running things' well into the 3rd Millenium.

As to 'Blame', I echo what Brillopad says - No One KNOWS for certain whether Brexit will be a positive or Negative for the UK.

I believe that if events were ALLOWED to take place WITHOUT the covert and sinister machinations and interference of the 'Illuminati' (for want of a better word) who WANT us to remain in the EU, then Brexit WILL only be beneficial for the UK.

That 'IF'is the key though because Brexiteers are up against a very powerful, very wealthy, very well organised, very well connected enemy who are aided indirectly by covert factions within the Labour Party who share the same 'Remain' objective though for different reasons.

Finally as poor as the Tories are proving to be - there is NO viable alternative because if Corbyn gets into power, all the complaints about the Tories will seem oh so petty.

It's going to have a negative impact and placing blame on an imaginary Illuminati is not going to change that (that line honestly feels like you preparing an excuse for when Brexit leaves us in a worse position then we were in) nor will blaming people who simply haven't gotten on board with it. Good intentions and pretending everything is fine won't stave off the inevitable and not liking how things are won't speed it up either.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's going to have a negative impact and placing blame on an imaginary Illuminati is not going to change that (that line honestly feels like you preparing an excuse for when Brexit leaves us in a worse position then we were in) nor will blaming people who simply haven't gotten on board with it. Good intentions and pretending everything is fine won't stave off the inevitable and not liking how things are won't speed it up either.

Oh dear. You write with such AUTHORITY on the EU and Brexit, Dezzy, but in reality, WHAT you write shows an alarming LACK of any REAL knowledge of both - In my opinion.

"It's going to have a negative impact..."

Are you now TIBB's own Psychic, Dezzy? Tibb’s very own Nostradamus or Edgar Cayce?

You speak so DEFINITIVELY of future events that you MUST think that you are. No one KNOWS the future and cloaking your PERSONAL opinion as fact lends it no more legitimacy than any other person's opinion.

"...and placing blame on an imaginary Illuminati is not going to change that (that line honestly feels like you preparing an excuse for when Brexit leaves us in a worse position then we were in) "


This is bordering on dishonesty and mockery.

I clearly qualified my use of the word 'Illuminati' by stating "for want of a better word".

It was a ‘convenience’, an ‘Umbrella’ term for the purpose of BREVITY, to save me having to write lists of the actual Super-Wealthy and Super-Powerful factions who do MOST CERTAINLY have deeply vested interests in ensuring that the UK Remains in the EU, and NONE of these ‘vested interests’ includes the well-being of the ‘Working Classes’ or ‘Poor’, or indeed anyone OUTSIDE of THEIR own ranks and aims.

I have no intention of writing 100 pages to defend myself against your mocking retort – and that number of pages would scarcely be sufficient anyway to FULLY expound why I am right and your response is wrong – but briefly:

The Rich and Powerful & EU Vested Interests Part One:

The House of Lords, EU Pensioners & Traitor Blair

The Lords is heavily riddled with Pro-EU traitors to this country - 374 of whom were STRATEGICALLY placed there by Pro-EU arch-Traitor Tony Blair during 1997 to 2007.

The first of the Lord’s two recent defeats of the Government’s Article 50 Bill was ORGANISED by Blair and his ‘Pet-Peer’ Lord Adonis abetted by Peers who were former EU Commissioners.

The EU pays over £500,00 in PENSIONS per year to former EU Officials who now sit in the Lords and this includes seven ex-EU Commissioners such as Blair’s bedfellow ‘Mr IFFY’ Peter Mandelson.

EU officials have to swear a permanent ‘Oath of Allegiance’ to Brussels and their Golden Pensions and other Lifetime ‘Bonuses’ can be withdrawn if those ex- Officials ever fail to ‘ACT IN THE EU’s INTERESTS’, but ‘Lo and Behold’ unlike ANY other situations where Peers may have a ‘Conflict of Interest’ when voting, it has been decreed that these EU Loyalists do NOT have to declare their EU Incomes or any 'Conflict of Interest' when voting.

Incidentally, these Peers 'Golden Pensions' is BRITISH TAX-PAYERS MONEY despite it being paid out by Brussels.

And just LOOK at some of the RATS who have vested in interests in scuppering Brexit and keeping the UK in the EU – whether OFFICIALLY or otherwise by rendering Brexit so ineffective that the ‘status quo’ changes in NAME only.

Lord Kinnock – ex-vice-president of the Commission

(The 'Welsh Windbag' a former British Labour Prime Minister receives a £87,000-a-year EU pension. Not bad UNEARNED income when a HUGE portion of the working classes he represented struggle by on around £15,000 per year for WORKING.)

Lord Patten - ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Tugendhat – ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Mandelson i- ex EU Commissioner.
Baroness Ashton.
Lord Clinton-Davis.
Lord Tugendhat
Lord Richard.
Etc. Etc.

HOW can these RATS SERVE TWO MASTERS?

They CANNOT, and their FIRST allegiance is NOT to the Best Interests of the UK and its people, it is to their Brussels Paymasters and PROTECTING their FAT, TAX-FREE Golden EU LIFETIME Payouts - not forgetting their many EU-based, very lucrative BUSINESS interests which will become endangered and much less lucrative should the UK REALLY Brexit.

The 'Illuminati' may well be a fiction but the above RICH and POWERFUL are REAL and they DO HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN SCUPPERING BREXIT.

They are also in a STRATEGIC position to do so, and ARE doing just that.

Next - George Soros, The Open Society Foundation, & Gina Miller

[bots]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

We had the choice of whether to stay or go, we had the choice of who runs the show and we still voted to keep an incompetent government in place despite knowing how terrible they were. Of course it's the people's fault if they are unhappy with how things go because THEY are the ones who decided to leave, they are the ones who decided which party should handle Brexit.

The bit about 'contacting your rep' is all well and good but it's not realistic. The Tories are running things and they'll be running things for years until the next election at least, they don't give a **** what people think because the election is way off. It doesn't matter if people are happy with Brexit or not, the referendum was to decide whether to leave or not, not HOW we should leave. The only control we had over that was deciding which government should handle it and people chose a terrible party to do it.

Voters only have themselves to blame.

I don't believe they are an incompetent government, quite the opposite actually. Too much regarding competence is subjectively defined by political persuasion.

I voted remain, because I felt the status quo was the better option, but brexit in itself doesnt bother me. People have such short term views and they shouldn't. It took 40 years for us to get the state of integration that we have now with the EU and it will take another 40 years of shaping relationships on brexit until we can truly decide if it was the correct path. By that time, the world will have changed beyond all recognition. Governments from left and right will have shaped the future. It's not and never will be about the now

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I don't believe they are an incompetent government, quite the opposite actually. Too much regarding competence is subjectively defined by political persuasion.

I voted remain, because I felt the status quo was the better option, but brexit in itself doesnt bother me. People have such short term views and they shouldn't. It took 40 years for us to get the state of integration that we have now with the EU and it will take another 40 years of shaping relationships on brexit until we can truly decide if it was the correct path. By that time, the world will have changed beyond all recognition. Governments from left and right will have shaped the future. It's not and never will be about the now

Some excellent points BOTS.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I don't believe they are an incompetent government, quite the opposite actually. Too much regarding competence is subjectively defined by political persuasion.

I voted remain, because I felt the status quo was the better option, but brexit in itself doesnt bother me. People have such short term views and they shouldn't. It took 40 years for us to get the state of integration that we have now with the EU and it will take another 40 years of shaping relationships on brexit until we can truly decide if it was the correct path. By that time, the world will have changed beyond all recognition. Governments from left and right will have shaped the future. It's not and never will be about the now

Like you I voted remain because of better the devil you know and some of the arguments didn't ring through, and I am not that opposed to Brexit either, I would just like to have been given truths and facts rather than a load of hogwash. I think the Irish border is a dealbreaker and will see us staying in the customs union, I can't see any way around it.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I don't believe they are an incompetent government, quite the opposite actually. Too much regarding competence is subjectively defined by political persuasion.

I voted remain, because I felt the status quo was the better option, but brexit in itself doesnt bother me. People have such short term views and they shouldn't. It took 40 years for us to get the state of integration that we have now with the EU and it will take another 40 years of shaping relationships on brexit until we can truly decide if it was the correct path. By that time, the world will have changed beyond all recognition. Governments from left and right will have shaped the future. It's not and never will be about the now

It's all well and good saying we'll know if it was worth it in 40 years but what about the lives that will be in ruins in the here and now when, chances are, Brexit ends up going terribly? I doubt 'Things will be better in 40 years, just you see!' will be a comfort to people who have lost their homes because we've slid into another recession or worse.

I think you're being very optimistic and you're minimalising the effects that Brexit may have on people now by saying that it might be worth it in the future. We don't need to be optimistic, we need to be realistic.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's all well and good saying we'll know if it was worth it in 40 years but what about the lives that will be in ruins in the here and now when, chances are, Brexit ends up going terribly? I doubt 'Things will be better in 40 years, just you see!' will be a comfort to people who have lost their homes because we've slid into another recession or worse.

I think you're being very optimistic and you're minimalising the effects that Brexit may have on people now by saying that it might be worth it in the future. We don't need to be optimistic, we need to be realistic.

We don’t need to be pessimistic - we need to be realistic. You are not an expert on Brexit and thinking the worse does not make you right. It is simply your pessimistic opinion. Wallow in that all you like - just don’t expect the rest of us too. It

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Maru

So if the people voted in the UK to leave the EU, it's the people's fault(?) for voting the wrong way because the politicians won't do the job they've signed on to do?... No, that's not how it works at all... Don't post in SD. Call your rep. It's no-one elses business how you've decided to vote, much less why... if they have a problem with it, let them pound sand. When the politicians are fail to do their job, hold them accountable.

Brilliantly expressed Maru. 'Tis no surprise though that it has fallen on deaf ears.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Brilliantly expressed Maru. 'Tis no surprise though that it has fallen on deaf ears.

It's OK, SD happens...

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