[Smithy]

Originally Posted by Josy

Sexual orientation is natural imo it's not something that can be changed or 'cured'

@ conversion camp enthusiasts

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Smithy

@ conversion camp enthusiasts

Yeah I was thinking that that's what he was basically describing his treatment was.

Bull**** imo

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Josy

I dont want to quote that post due to the length but if it's an illness that he could be 'cured' from then how can he also claim it's a sexual orientation?

Sexual orientation is natural imo it's not something that can be changed or 'cured'

This.

If anything his case just proves that it's a mental health issue.

[Josy]

And also, sexual orientation refers to the gender that a person is attracted to whereas paedophiles are attracted to children

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Josy

And also, sexual orientation refers to the gender that a person is attracted to whereas paedophiles are attracted to children

Depends if you're talking common usage or literal usage. In common usage, yes, it's talking about sexuality. If we're talking literal, it would mean literally any form of sexual desire (as "orientation" is a very broad term that could mean anything).

I have recently argued on here that common usage is always the more linguistically correct usage, though... so yes if I was the editor for this article I'd probably have recommended rewording that.

Regarding conversion therapy, that's where it becomes a very hot topic, because obviously people are going to want to brand it "impossible" to address for fear of adding fuel to the fire of people who advocate conversion therapy for perfectly normal sexualities.

It's not the same thing, though. As he's pointed out, paedophilia is usually a result of trauma and trauma IS very treatable - thus, treating childhood trauma could (almost as a side effect) "cure" paedophilia. I think it is important to frame it as a trauma-related mental health problem though, as it pretty much always is, rather than an orientation. He actually does DESCRIBE it as a trauma-related problem, so it's a strange choice of words for naming it.

I have read before that anonymous surveys have shown that (scarily, I suppose) the vast majority of paedophiles DON'T ever commit an offense or even tell anyone. The abnormal feelings and the ability to actively harm someone are two completely separate things.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I have read before that anonymous surveys have shown that (scarily, I suppose) the vast majority of paedophiles DON'T ever commit an offense or even tell anyone. The abnormal feelings and the ability to actively harm someone are two completely separate things.

Yeah, true. I suppose it's like the difference between having feelings of pure anger and being a violent person. Experiencing the former doesn't automatically make you a person prone to do the latter.

[Rob!]

Thanks for that Ammi - yeah that's exactly the sort of thing I meant.
I think the temptation is to umbrella all pedophiles into the Saville stereotype because sexual attraction to children is abhorrent to us and so it makes our minds feel better to associate it with evil.
I mean, I feel like I'm sounding like I'm defending the behaviour of acting upon it, of course I am most definitely not and I hope that's clear but I feel the simple stamp of "EVIL MONSTER" that is automatically assigned to the topic without wanting to understand any other motives or reasoning behind the thinking of everyone in that group doesn't help the people that genuinely want to change and those people MUST exist.

[Mystic Mock]

Pedophilia is not a sexual orientation imo, Pedophiles who haven't acted on their urges need psychological help, not instead having someone on Facebook talking about it like it's okay to be a Pedophile.

[thesheriff443]

People always seem to talk about this subject in the same way.

For some peodophiles, there are countries that they can go to and fulfill their sickest desires because the children’s parents actually prostatue their kids.

So sleeping with kids is the normal thing to do.

[Ammi]

...I’m not sure that even with an anonymous survey, how much it could be trusted in any accuracy because saying...’I have never..’...obviously allows for some kind of possible understanding that ‘I have acted on...’...would never allow for...

...the therapy used is something called psychoanalytic psychotherapy, I don’t know exactly what that would be and whether/how it would compare to conversion therapy...


...I believe it to be a mental disorder, I said earlier and wouldn’t describe it as a sexual orientation...abuse of a child is often by someone who themselves have been abused but it isn’t always and I don’t know whether it’s mostly...it’s also very much power and obviously perversion...there would never surely be a ‘cure’ as such for a mental disorder, so much as it would be more to help control it/to prevent that acting on it...and I guess that’s possible to have success for an entire lifetime....

[Kizzy]

Reading the article Ammi posted which was really interesting I was surprised it's referred to as a sexual orientation, it isn't..well not in his case anyway it was the result of his own abuse, so a deviance. His sexual urges were deviated due to childhood trauma.
I can understand and sympathise with that due to his explanation.
I wonder how the extreme side of peadophilia rationalise their sexual urges? How can it be that some are disgusted with it and others act on it.
Is it like sociopathy rather than sexuality?

It's a really uncomfortable subject being so taboo, I'm really conflicted part of me thinks that help is good, and yet worried as Josy said of it becoming normalised :/

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I wonder how the extreme side of peadophilia rationalise their sexual urges? How can it be that some are disgusted with it and others act on it.
Is it like sociopathy rather than sexuality?

It's a really uncomfortable subject being so taboo, I'm really conflicted part of me thinks that help is good, and yet worried as Josy said of it becoming normalised :/

I think the self-control aspect and people actually acting on it is probably a separate thing. In people with totally normal sexual urges it's not inevitable that someone who is sexually repressed will act on it, but a small number do. The vast majority of adult men who can't find another adult to have consensual sex with don't automatically decide to rape someone instead... They have the desire to have a sexual relationship with a woman but they're not going to harm someone to get it. But then there are those who do. It definitely must be partly an empathy issue, but I doubt rapists are generally sociopaths, which is uncomfortable in itself. When it comes to active child molesters it can be even more messed up because with "grooming" they can even convince themself that the child was a willing/consenting participant, which is really what a lot of these groups are about - trying to convince people that the kids are OK with it, because they actually believe it. Grim. It's compounded by the fact that a "groomed" child often seems totally fine while the abuse is going on and really doesn't understand what it is. Then they hit their teens and early adulthood when they can understand that they were abused, they realise what happened to them, and their mental health collapses. Like an abuse time-bomb. So if the child doesn't seem traumatised, or even upset, at the time... The child molester can convince himself that what he's doing isn't so bad.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think the self-control aspect and people actually acting on it is probably a separate thing. In people with totally normal sexual urges it's not inevitable that someone who is sexually repressed will act on it, but a small number do. The vast majority of adult men who can't find another adult to have consensual sex with don't automatically decide to rape someone instead... They have the desire to have a sexual relationship with a woman but they're not going to harm someone to get it. But then there are those who do. It definitely must be partly an empathy issue, but I doubt rapists are generally sociopaths, which is uncomfortable in itself. When it comes to active child molesters it can be even more messed up because with "grooming" they can even convince themself that the child was a willing/consenting participant, which is really what a lot of these groups are about - trying to convince people that the kids are OK with it, because they actually believe it. Grim. It's compounded by the fact that a "groomed" child often seems totally fine while the abuse is going on and really doesn't understand what it is. Then they hit their teens and early adulthood when they can understand that they were abused, they realise what happened to them, and their mental health collapses. Like an abuse time-bomb. So if the child doesn't seem traumatised, or even upset, at the time... The child molester can convince himself that what he's doing isn't so bad.

I didn't suggest it was inevitable the repressed would act on urges. Rapists are very different, they are all about hate, power and control the very epitome of sociopathy. But that's not the same as imagining a child reciprocates feelings for you, that is a dangerous delusion no matter which way you look at it

[arista]

[Paedophile Mark Sutherland loses human rights court challenge]



[Mark Sutherland's appeal was unanimously rejected by Scotland's
Supreme Court judges]


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53416056

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by arista

[Paedophile Mark Sutherland loses human rights court challenge]



[Mark Sutherland's appeal was unanimously rejected by Scotland's
Supreme Court judges]


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53416056

good

[Livia]

It must be awful to realise that you're sexually attracted to children. However, once they attempt to act on that urge I have no sympathy at all and would like to see them taken out of society forever.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by arista

[Paedophile Mark Sutherland loses human rights court challenge]



[Mark Sutherland's appeal was unanimously rejected by Scotland's
Supreme Court judges]


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53416056

I get so conflicted over this subject in particular, vigilantism should be left to films and comic books and I do think that most groups probably do more harm then good but I can't really oppose people who expose this sort of thing. I know there's some organisations that do things the right way but I do think that, before long, there'll be incidents of stings gone wrong and I think people could get hurt.

I think the practice of basically anyone becoming a hunter should be discouraged but I can't oppose the more organised groups that do things by the book and get results.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I get so conflicted over this subject in particular, vigilantism should be left to films and comic books and I do think that most groups probably do more harm then good but I can't really oppose people who expose this sort of thing. I know there's some organisations that do things the right way but I do think that, before long, there'll be incidents of stings gone wrong and I think people could get hurt.

I think the practice of basically anyone becoming a hunter should be discouraged but I can't oppose the more organised groups that do things by the book and get results.

Yeah and a person who is such a danger to children "getting off" on a technicality would be despicable

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah and a person who is such a danger to children "getting off" on a technicality would be despicable

Yeah, when it's poorly done, a predator can get a mistrial. It's a complex issue, I don't think it should be as widespread a practice as it is but I can't fault the ones that are basically professionals at it. I think it's an issue I'm very much a hypocrite in since I oppose vigilantism but I can't bring myself to condemn hunters completely. It's a difficult one.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I get so conflicted over this subject in particular, vigilantism should be left to films and comic books and I do think that most groups probably do more harm then good but I can't really oppose people who expose this sort of thing. I know there's some organisations that do things the right way but I do think that, before long, there'll be incidents of stings gone wrong and I think people could get hurt.



I think the practice of basically anyone becoming a hunter should be discouraged but I can't oppose the more organised groups that do things by the book and get results.

I know of a group that was shut down (well, shut themselves down) because it did indeed go wrong. They posed as a 15 year old girl online, met up with what they believed to be an adult posing as a 16 year old boy, cornered and confronted him, live-streamed the whole thing to face book...

... Problem was, it actually was a 16 year old boy who happened to be tall and have a lot of facial hair for his age.

And who came from a rather ... Erm... Lively? family. Who tracked down the paedophile hunters and smashed in all of their windows and threatened to kill them.

I understand the motivations of these groups but I think it serves as an example of why these things should be left to professionals. At absolute most, they should just gather information online and hand it over to the police. The physical (and especially the live-streamed) confrontations are just too prone to errors being made.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I know of a group that was shut down (well, shut themselves down) because it did indeed go wrong. They posed as a 15 year old girl online, met up with what they believed to be an adult posing as a 16 year old boy, cornered and confronted him, live-streamed the whole thing to face book...

... Problem was, it actually was a 16 year old boy who happened to be tall and have a lot of facial hair for his age.

And who came from a rather ... Erm... Lively? family. Who tracked down the paedophile hunters and smashed in all of their windows and threatened to kill them.

I understand the motivations of these groups but I think it serves as an example of why these things should be left to professionals. At absolute most, they should just gather information online and hand it over to the police. The physical (and especially the live-streamed) confrontations are just too prone to errors being made.

Yeah, I despise the live streaming aspect since it becomes more about the clout rather than doing good. It basically becomes no different to Tommy Robinson trying to livestream those child abuse trials, it becomes about self promotion rather than bringing predators to justice.

I'm sure I've read about a few groups who don't do that sort of thing though, they gather evidence and turn it in and that's it and I admire those people since they are doing good for the sake of doing good. If it weren't for people like that, I'd oppose hunter groups but while you've got groups that handle things right and never make it about themselves, it's not a practice I can oppose although it often leaves me in a quandary about vigilantism since I oppose it otherwise.

[Oliver_W]

I will admit the predator catching streams can be addictive viewing the American ones anyroad.

But even then it feels like they're making it for the spectacle rather than justice. otherwise it'd just show the chat logs along with evidence as to who the person is.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

I will admit the predator catching streams can be addictive viewing the American ones anyroad.



But even then it feels like they're making it for the spectacle rather than justice. otherwise it'd just show the chat logs along with evidence as to who the person is.

In America there's the added complication of aspects of their legal system, a good lawyer in most states will crumble the case because of the public streaming, entrapment issues, etc.

Even worse is when someone was already being investigated but the whole thing falls apart because of public involvement.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

I will admit the predator catching streams can be addictive viewing the American ones anyroad.

But even then it feels like they're making it for the spectacle rather than justice. otherwise it'd just show the chat logs along with evidence as to who the person is.

Don't get me started , notice how everyone on YouTube now thinks they're a trained predator catcher vigilante hunter . Everyone wants to be Chris Hanson now .

This is dangerous and not to be made a spectacle of , and some of the videos are fake 100% with actors which I find distasteful and pointless.

But the ones that are real just make for uncomfortable viewing either way with the risks clearly showing.