[GoldHeart]

Fans and other people just want evidence , Leaving Neverland is propaganda to shock the viewers and to play on their emotions.

I could make UP a graphic traumatic story up right now but doesn't make it FACT.

Old tabloid fantasy stories are being dug up on MJ that were debunked, the FBI & Tom Sneddon has it in for MJ for years .

If any of these ridiculous rumours were true about MJ they would of indited him , as the saying goes
'even a ham sandwich can get indited '.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

But... they don't believe that he did. So if some irrefutable evidence came out then that would be it.

When discussing his own upbringing, I've only ever seen people use it to understand or explain his behaviour, never excuse it.

Which is why I asked the question

For some fans its wouldn't be "it". My friend is a lifelong MJ fan and defender and he said even if photographic/ video evidence came out, although it would dent his adoration, he would still attribute the main blame on mjs upbringing, which to me, personally is abhorrent as he was an adult but I wanted to see if other MJ fans felt the same or if they felt the way that I did??

As I said it was not a sarcastic or baiting question, it was a legitimate question without judgement. I am just interested, although the fact that after twice asking no-one but you has answered tells me one of two things, either I am on ignore, or its an uncomfortable question for his fans

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Which is why I asked the question

For some fans its wouldn't be "it". My friend is a lifelong MJ fan and defender and he said even if photographic/ video evidence came out, although it would dent his adoration, he would still attribute the main blame on mjs upbringing, which to me, personally is abhorrent as he was an adult but I wanted to see if other MJ fans felt the same or if they felt the way that I did??

As I said it was not a sarcastic, it was a legitimate question without judgement.

I don't believe MJ is guilty and many other people feel the same way, we want proper evidence that's all coherent stories of the alleged abuse.

There's too many inconsistencies and contradictions . So yes although there's probably SOME fans out there that will never accept MJ might be guilty there's other people who just can't see him as a child molester as it doesn't fit together , plus he was investigated for a long time and was found innocent.

And finding MJ strange and child like doesn't automatically mean he abused kids. But i think he made poor decisions through naivety . I also think his upbringing had alot to do with it . He was a mega star and one of the biggest targets for extortion scams .

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

I don't believe MJ is guilty and many other people feel the same way, we want proper evidence that's all coherent stories of the alleged abuse.

There's too many inconsistencies and contradictions . So yes although there's probably SOME fans out there that will never accept MJ might be guilty there's other people who just can't see him as a child molester as it doesn't fit together , plus he was investigated for a long time and was found innocent.

And finding MJ strange and child like doesn't automatically mean he abused kids. But i think he made poor decisions through naivety . I also think his upbringing had alot to do with it . He was a mega star and one of the biggest targets for extortion scams .

I understand that but its not the question I have asked, twice.

What if there were irrefutable evidence, what would your stance be then? Read back for full question as its late and ive quoted it twice

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Which is why I asked the question

For some fans its wouldn't be "it". My friend is a lifelong MJ fan and defender and he said even if photographic/ video evidence came out, although it would dent his adoration, he would still attribute the main blame on mjs upbringing, which to me, personally is abhorrent as he was an adult but I wanted to see if other MJ fans felt the same or if they felt the way that I did??

As I said it was not a sarcastic or baiting question, it was a legitimate question without judgement. I am just interested, although the fact that after twice asking no-one but you has answered tells me one of two things, either I am on ignore, or its an uncomfortable question for his fans

I thought you meant if irrefutable evidence came out would his fans still be defending him as innocent.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I thought you meant if irrefutable evidence came out would his fans still be defending him as innocent.

No, not at all....my friend said he said it still wouldn't be MJs fault if he had molested those kids as he hadn't had the chance to mature emotionally or sexually due to his upbringing

At that point I had to walk away

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Which is why I asked the question

For some fans its wouldn't be "it". My friend is a lifelong MJ fan and defender and he said even if photographic/ video evidence came out, although it would dent his adoration, he would still attribute the main blame on mjs upbringing, which to me, personally is abhorrent as he was an adult but I wanted to see if other MJ fans felt the same or if they felt the way that I did??

As I said it was not a sarcastic or baiting question, it was a legitimate question without judgement. I am just interested, although the fact that after twice asking no-one but you has answered tells me one of two things, either I am on ignore, or its an uncomfortable question for his fans

I just don't get how anyone could just blindly excuse someone because they're famous and they admire their career. I was in fact faced with that dilemma myself recently and I went off this particular "hero" of mine instantly

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I just don't get how anyone could just blindly excuse someone because they're famous and they admire their career. I was in fact faced with that dilemma myself recently and I went off this particular "hero" of mine instantly

It's not quite the same, but Richard Wagner, a famous composer, was a virulent antisemite. Yet many Jewish musicians, conductors and fans continue admiring his music. Stephen Fry, who is half-Jewish, said that he couldn't imagine life without Wagner's operas even though he knows Wagner's views on people like him.
I think if somebody is a genius people are more willing to separate things.
I'm not saying it's right, but it happens.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I just don't get how anyone could just blindly excuse someone because they're famous and they admire their career. I was in fact faced with that dilemma myself recently and I went off this particular "hero" of mine instantly

But Annie's point was about them absolving him of blame due to his upbringing, not his work.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

This is going to sound sarcastic, but please believe me, it isn't but IF some irrefutable evidence came out to prove MJ did have sexual relationships with these or other boys, would you guys then condemn him or still believe, as Streisand obviously does, that his upbringing were to blame and so in some way his actions can be excused?

I would not be the fan I am now but I would not stop playing his music,there are also celebrities (Diana Ross,Will-I-am) etc who have also said they do not believe the accustations so no different to some of us really, Streisand is unsure imo,she just doesn't want to be seen as 'sticking up for him' hence the apology ,also if the shoe was on the other foot and those two men were found to be lying would people feel bad for accusing him,I don't think they would as the theory is set in their minds already.

[user104658]

Not that anyone will be listening but again... Contradicting timeliness mean nothing. These are events from decades in the past and it's perfectly feasible that some of the exact dates and times (and even locations) would be misremembered.

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Not that anyone will be listening but again... Contradicting timeliness mean nothing. These are events from decades in the past and it's perfectly feasible that some of the exact dates and times (and even locations) would be misremembered.

We went through this on about page 4 or maybe earlier...I forgot to say then that my niece and I reinacted a picture of me sat feeding my niece at the xmas dinner table from toddler age in the first photo to God knows how many years later for the 2nd photo.


Can I remember the dates years..course not, but I know it was a memory I won't forget...and that's one I'm trying not to forget...you are spot on TS...and loved.

[Parmy]

I have swayed from thinking these 2 boys are innocent now...I think yes..they were innocent, then michael got his hands on them...them out of all the thousands of pics he would have been sent? Why them...to me that's a big question.

Why did michael chose them out of all the requests he must have had?

Is he just a really really unlucky guy that 3 of his closest friends that he chose out of thousands have turned out not to be nice little boys after all?


Is he, is he really that unlucky?

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by parmnion

I have swayed from thinking these 2 boys are innocent now...I think yes..they were innocent, then michael got his hands on them...them out of all the thousands of pics he would have been sent? Why them...to me that's a big question.

Why did michael chose them out of all the requests he must have had?

Is he just a really really unlucky guy that 3 of his closest friends that he chose out of thousands have turned out not to be nice little boys after all?


Is he, is he really that unlucky?

Well the biggest MISTAKE was letting Wade , James , Gavin & Jordy into his life .



It wasn't about being unlucky , MJ sadly was too trusting and got taken advantage of .

If Peter Andre won the dance contest instead of Wade ,I wonder what Wade's mother would of done then .

If MJ was a serial molestor why has only 4 accused him with contradictory stories that are easily debunked with zero proof .
These accusations seem to be every 10 years as well .

[user104658]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

Well the biggest MISTAKE was letting Wade , James , Gavin & Jordy into his life .







It wasn't about being unlucky , MJ sadly was too trusting and got taken advantage of .



If Peter Andre won the dance contest instead of Wade ,I wonder what Wade's mother would of done then .



If MJ was a serial molestor why has only 4 accused him with contradictory stories that are easily debunked with zero proof .

These accusations seem to be every 10 years as well .

"Only" four .

[GoldHeart]

Gavin Arvizo was proved a liar and was coerced by his mother who was an unstable con artist . She falsely accused JC penny of sexual harassment & her kids lied for her .

Evan chandler himself admitted he drugged his own son Jordy with a drug people thought wasa truth serum but it just made Jordy very suggestive.

previously Jordy denied MJ did anything innapropriate & same goes for Gavin but with Gavin he was bitter MJ didn't pay him attention anymore as he could see the family were using him . And with Chandler the father abused Jordy & he wanted to get money out of MJ .

Now 2 more accusers James & Wade previously sang Mj's praises and they saw him as a friend until they both hit financial troubles then all of a sudden MJ abused them .

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

Well the biggest MISTAKE was letting Wade , James , Gavin & Jordy into his life .



It wasn't about being unlucky , MJ sadly was too trusting and got taken advantage of .

If Peter Andre won the dance contest instead of Wade ,I wonder what Wade's mother would of done then .

If MJ was a serial molestor why has only 4 accused him with contradictory stories that are easily debunked with zero proof .
These accusations seem to be every 10 years as well .

I think it's probably because each boy is telling a different story, but each boy are being judged as one..

MJ fans are so determined to dispel each one that they forget the fact that the four boys probably ended up aiding and abetting michael in the furthwr abuse of different boys..

Maybe now though they realise the guilt they have felt for doing that should be firmly pushed onto michael..I don't know though..

[Parmy]

Evan chandler himself admitted he drugged his own son Jordy with a drug people thought wasa truth serum but it just made Jordy very suggestive.



I'm not surprised.

[Parmy]

Have we discussed jesus juice yet?


Here's a thought.....imagine living on a shirty life..then all of a sudden you are in Mj's bedroom...?

[GoldHeart]

The " Jesus juice " was another ridiculous fantasy made up . it was later revealed that kids broke into Mj's cellar and helped themselves to wine .

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

The " Jesus juice " was another ridiculous fantasy made up . it was later revealed that kids broke into Mj's cellar and helped themselves to wine .

There is no way the little boys sneeked past all those security cameras..

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

The " Jesus juice " was another ridiculous fantasy made up . it was later revealed that kids broke into Mj's cellar and helped themselves to wine .

He was quite the manipulator and master paedophile. ..force feeding the kids the jesus juice and turning them into children that ended up loving his abuse so much they turned alcoholic. Addicted to the only drug that made them tolerate the life they had been dealt.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by parmnion

He was quite the manipulator and master paedophile. ..force feeding the kids the jesus juice and turning them into children that ended up loving his abuse so much they turned alcoholic. Addicted to the only drug that made them tolerate the life they had been dealt.

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

Sounds ridiculous to you don't it

[thesheriff443]

Famous or unknown, no one is beyond question and if as a grown man you want young boys to sleep in your bedroom it will raise questions.

No one is stopping anyone listening to his music it’s just not being played on the bbc.

This story has not and may never come to a close but life goes on regardless.