[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

It was a very good post, insulting the words someone uses however isn't good posting in my opinion.

Are you saying that enquiring if someone is American is now considered an insult? Oh the sensitive sensibilities of the "i cant think of a rebuttal" poster.

[InOne]

As Artista said. God Delusion, sorted.

[Stu]

I must stress again that it is my belief that both atheism and religion are as bad as the other. People just cant open there minds to the alternatives to the Abrahamic God. When people ask me why I believe in a 'God' they think I believe in a sentient being living in the clouds who cares if I masturbate on Tuesdays. The 'force' that got us here could take any form. Our consciousness might not even be capable of understanding or fathoming this form. I am a big proponent of the idea that this life could be a very small part of a big deal, or that it may simply be a dream in a never ending episode of experiencing one mass subconscious subjectively. The possibilities are endless.

But everything cant possibly come from nothing. Give your mind a little more credit. It's an amazing thing that knows it's own existence. That alone is proof of something for me.

And that's why Richard Dawkins is a moron.

No, what this world needs is a quiet spiritual awakening in private and with each other, through the medium of reflection and love, and away from Church religion, which serve merely as means of identifying oneself. Strength in numbers.

Even religions message of anti-materialism is a fad when you realise you have merely substituted a sacred text for your new material fetish. The Bible looks great. It's big, it's black and it's golden. It looks awesome and convinces you through the medium of aesthetics that it is indeed a good thing.

In reality, no man can teach you the way. Every available existing religious path in the world currently simply evolved from a living, ordinary man or group of living, ordinary men who had there own opinions that caught on until we believed them to be near fact, worthy of faith.

I would recommend at this point, of course, to getting an group of insightful friends, retreat to nature, munching down some psilocybin mushrooms that nature conveniently left there with us and take some drumming or rhythmic apparatus with you [after all, life is merely one long rhythm of impermanence, and music is a creative reflection on that. Music is sacred, folks. It makes you feel things. We have a natural sense of rhythm].

Of course, you could always stay in and watch the X Factor. The choice is yours.

[InOne]

I do not deny that there could be a god, small chance. But to bluntly say there is not would be as bad as them.

[NettoSuperstar!]

I never said the bible was factually accurate, I said I dont see whats wrong with someone following the teachings of the bible and following Jesus. Theres ways of living that benefit humanity and ways that dont...Its within us to follow either path, we arent inherently good or bad, whats wrong with Christians following the same path as Jesus? Thats what am sayin man

[Stu]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

I never said the bible was factually accurate, I said I dont see whats wrong with someone following the teachings of the bible and following Jesus. Theres ways of living that benefit humanity and ways that dont...Its within us to follow either path, we arent inherently good or bad, whats wrong with Christians following the same path as Jesus? Thats what am sayin man

Don't get me wrong, I know you never said the Bible was factually accurate, my point is you don't need a reason to be nice to people. And someone following in Jesus' path is certainly admiral, given how morally up to scratch Jesus is in the New Testament [despite what an egotistical bastard he was in the old testament, or was that God? No Jesus is god. But wait, why does he pray to god then? I guess he must be the son of god. The trinity is a fascinating thing!] but it does NOT render religion valid in my eyes. Your still committing good acts in the name of something false.

I could go out on the streets now and give everybody a tenner in the name of Twacksmith, the god of leather pants, but despite my good actions, it would not make what I believe anymore credible.

You will, I should point out, see HOARDS of scientologists in there little yellow jackets helping people and showering them with care at most major disasters in America.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by ProbeEight

Don't get me wrong, I know you never said the Bible was factually accurate, my point is you don't need a reason to be nice to people. And someone following in Jesus' path is certainly admiral, given how morally up to scratch Jesus is in the New Testament [despite what an egotistical bastard he was in the old testament, or was that God? No Jesus is god. But wait, why does he pray to god then? I guess he must be the son of god. The trinity is a fascinating thing!] but it does NOT render religion valid in my eyes. Your still committing good acts in the name of something false.

I could go out on the streets now and give everybody a tenner in the name of Twacksmith, the god of leather pants, but despite my good actions, it would not make what I believe anymore credible.

You will, I should point out, see HOARDS of scientologists in there little yellow jackets helping people and showering them with care at most major disasters in America.

Hehe and I'd wholeheartedly respect your faith in Twacksmith especially if you were givin me a tenner

[Crimson Dynamo]

Most of our (and your) morality comes from the Bible

[Stu]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Most of our (and your) morality comes from the Bible

Yeah, it's done such a good job, has it not?

Originally Posted by InOne

Do you agree with the idea of original sin?

How convenient it is that we are ALL born with sin, and the only way to heal it so to speak is to come to Jesus. L. Ron Hubbard would be proud!

You may also notice that quiet a lot of the seven 'deadly' sins lead to physical and emotional gratification. And that a few directly contradict, remove or solve the others [Pride Vs. Gluttony, for instance].

[Sticks]

ProbeEight, there is such a concept as context.

For one, a lot of your quotes were injunctions from the Old Testament and part of the Old Covenant.

These were done away with when Jesus died on the cross, and we are under the new covenant where a lot of those rules were never copied across.

With regard to philanthropy, the 19th century reformers were motivated by their faith to assist their fellow human beings.

Can you give me examples of well known atheists or humanists who have done the same motivated by their beliefs?

[InOne]

Originally Posted by Sticks

ProbeEight, there is such a concept as context.

For one, a lot of your quotes were injunctions from the Old Testament and part of the Old Covenant.

These were done away with when Jesus died on the cross, and we are under the new covenant where a lot of those rules were never copied across.

With regard to philanthropy, the 19th century reformers were motivated by their faith to assist their fellow human beings.

Can you give me examples of well known atheists or humanists who have done the same motivated by their beliefs?

Do you agree with the idea of original sin?

[Sticks]

Originally Posted by InOne

Do you agree with the idea of original sin?

Original Sin is a false doctrine, See Ezekiel 18 which comprehensively refutes it.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Sticks

ProbeEight, there is such a concept as context.

For one, a lot of your quotes were injunctions from the Old Testament and part of the Old Covenant.

These were done away with when Jesus died on the cross, and we are under the new covenant where a lot of those rules were never copied across.

With regard to philanthropy, the 19th century reformers were motivated by their faith to assist their fellow human beings.

Can you give me examples of well known atheists or humanists who have done the same motivated by their beliefs?

Are you kidding me? Plenty of people donate to charity, provide humanitarian work, work with various groups, and commit all manner of philanthropy. Both secular and non secular, from ALL religions. That's not what I am here to argue. No doubt there are decent Christians out there doing nice stuff. Plenty, in fact.

So what of the laws in the torah? Were they all done away with too with the advent of Jesus & the New Testament? I speak of course of various passages depicting homosexuals in a bad light, as many Jesus followers still seem to bible bash and quote old covenant and indeed Old Testament verses to back up there homophobia. That's what irks me.

So we are told live by the bible but a great half of it is no longer relevant now that Jesus came? It's this very nature of various interpretations that makes it such a joke, I think. In essence you are proving my point. That and the fact that 'concept of context' is very much a blanket argument. But that's fair, I don't expect you to refute every horrible thing said in the Bible. You do need to sleep tonight.

Out of interest and understanding, and not as a personal attack, again I want to ask you : Do you believe in the theory of evolution? Or do you subscribe to biblical creationism? Because Jesus did. He believed in both the story of the great flood and adam and eve. Are Jesus' beliefs now irrelevant too?

Seems to me the [proven] fact that the earth is MORE than a couple of thousands of years old and The Bible, even in a friendly, New Testament guise, utterly cannot co-exist.

Jesus was a creationist. He is your God & Messiah. Are you a creationist, too?

[InOne]

Ahhhh well we won't get through to these, they have an answer to everything, delusional or not.

[Crimson Dynamo]

if only you lot actually had a basic knowledge of what Christianity is then there could be a serious debate. All we have had so far is some myths, cliches and the usual insults that try (badly) to disguise a lack of subject knowledge.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

if only you lot actually had a basic knowledge of what Christianity is then there could be a serious debate. All we have had so far is some myths, cliches and the usual insults that try (badly) to disguise a lack of subject knowledge.

Don't make me laugh, we know exactly what it is.

[Tom4784]

I think there's every possibility of a greater force but I do find the bible contradictory on points. I don't believe in placing all my eggs in one basket though so I don't really follow any religion and I don't think it's a point worth worrying about until you are near death or dead since we've got no proof to prove there's anything beyond death and no proof to say there isn't.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I think there's every possibility of a greater force but I do find the bible contradictory on points. I don't believe in placing all my eggs in one basket though so I don't really follow any religion and I don't think it's a point worth worrying about until you are near death or dead since we've got no proof to prove there's anything beyond death and no proof to say there isn't.

The Bible is 66 books written over thousands of years, some poetry, some prophesy, some allegory and some eyewitness history. The Old testament provides the types and shadows of what was to come in the New testament. The overarching theme is love.

Christianity is about faith and love. It is about how you live your life and how you treat others. It is not about a few facts or about death. It is about going to church, living, interacting and being.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The Bible is 66 books written over thousands of years, some poetry, some prophesy, some allegory and some eyewitness history.

Thus it would be foolish to follow it and think you know, like Sticks does, which parts seem to matter and which don't. Now I see your argument, LeatherTrumpet!

Thank you and goodnight.

66 books. Thousands of years. Dozens of versions. Hundreds of edits. And it's meant to give you peace of mind?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I think there's every possibility of a greater force but I do find the bible contradictory on points. I don't believe in placing all my eggs in one basket though so I don't really follow any religion and I don't think it's a point worth worrying about until you are near death or dead since we've got no proof to prove there's anything beyond death and no proof to say there isn't.

Absolutely!! I agree 100% with this!!^^^^^^^^

[InOne]

Christianity itself is full of contradictions and 'false' doctrines. Read the Bible, actually read it, you will see.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by InOne

Christianity itself is full of contradictions and 'false' doctrines. Read the Bible, actually read it, you will see.

Dan Brown has a lot to answer for.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Dan Brown has a lot to answer for.

He writes fiction. Same as the bible.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Dan Brown has a lot to answer for.

Dan Brown?? lol. If people are generally good, then I don't see why they need to follow a whole set of rules which are alot of times pointless. I mean, take Catholicism for example, you're not allowed to use contraciption so it's better to have unwanted babies??? makes no sense at all

[InOne]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

Dan Brown?? lol. If people are generally good, then I don't see why they need to follow a whole set of rules which are alot of times pointless. I mean, take Catholicism for example, you're not allowed to use contraciption so it's better to have unwanted babies??? makes no sense at all

Yep, it's funny how the Pope casually said 'Limbo does not exist'. Where did all those unbaptized babies go?