[MTVN]

Originally Posted by setanta

Quite a number of them do and, because of it being such a taboo subject in today's society, not many in depth studies have been made and it's been fairly neglected by the medical community: there's no real empirical evidence or common practices being used when dealing with Paedophilia. Actually, you should watch Louis Theroux's documentary to see how the States are dealing with the problem... it's laughable and quite pathetic in a way really.

I did a quick google search and yeah from what I saw it seems that most rehabilitation techniques have poor success rates. I did see some of that Louis Theroux documentary I think, the one where sex offenders are locked up in that mental hospital?

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Lucy.

How ironic. People need to read the posts properly, i.e. you. I said I UNDERSTAND why people want justice for their children, but ending someone's life wether their is a reason for it or not is making you a killer whichever way you choose to look at it. We are not here to play God and choose who dies and who does not. We are also not here to strip people of human rights, taking someone's right to food and protection away from them is unethical and inhumane and why would you want to stoop to that level? Loss of freedom is the punishment of prison which many people fail to realise. Besides, where do you draw the line with what is and what isn't worth death? Who are you to make that distinction? And don't spout off to me about me not being a parent and not understanding, just because you have a child doesn't give you the right to be immoral.

I think you should think before you say those things to Angus.maybe you should re- read her post.a bit of sensitivity here would be nice.

[Lucy.]

Originally Posted by kazanne

I think you should think before you say those things to Angus.maybe you should re- read her post.a bit of sensitivity here would be nice.

I'm not going to explain myself to you, this is the third time now I have said I completely understand why parents want justice for their children, but killing the perpetrator is not the answer.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by kazanne

How do you know what crime is neutral to people?No one is inciting violence,people write things like that all the time it doesn't mean they would ever carry it out,Have you ever said you would kill someone,most of us have in anger,they are throw away lines and people are taking them too literally,having said that,I have every reason to feel as i do,it's not for this forum,but some criminals are beyond help and a slap on the wrist will never make them behave!!!

But you don't understand, do you? It's an illness... these people are sick and acting on compulsions that are beyond their control. I prefer to think of it rationally rather than indulge in emotion when we're dealing with such a taboo subject.

Look, maybe they'll never be cured, but surely we shouldn't be condoning the torture or death of another human being just because they're beyond help? They were burning people at the stake a few centuries ago for problems that we've found cures for or learned more about through science and analysis.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I did a quick google search and yeah from what I saw it seems that most rehabilitation techniques have poor success rates. I did see some of that Louis Theroux documentary I think, the one where sex offenders are locked up in that mental hospital?

Yeah, that's the one.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Lucy.

I'm not going to explain myself to you, this is the third time now I have said I completely understand why parents want justice for their children, but killing the perpetrator is not the answer.

i have not said i wanted them killed!! as Angus explained parents and family get so angry because child murderers ,etc,get an easy ride and get such short sentences,if life meant life,i am sure we involved would all feel better,we get angry because the law is soft.

[Lucy.]

Originally Posted by kazanne

they should get their hands chopped off

Death or no death, this is still immoral.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Shaun

That's all very swish and dandy, but I highly doubt that the walls of your pregnant womb were imbued with an elixir of knowledge. I hate this assumption that all teenagers and childless parties in this argument cannot understand the severity of the crime committed here, because they haven't fulfilled a universally available biological process.

It's interesting what lily and setanta said - if this were their children they would want to rip them apart. And that's understandable - there is no underestimating the personal hatred and anger they, or you, or I, would go through in that scenario.

However, here, the crime is entirely neutral to all of us. And yet we're divided into two camps: those with composure, and those citing violence. That is the very core distinction here.

Of course, citing violence and causing it are very different things. But that's only in this instance - for example, looking at child porn and taking part in child porn are very different. Does that make the observant form (the former) any less severe? No, because they are still practicing in child pornography. You, and angus58, and whoever else has posted in agreement here, are practicing in violence.

What utter patronising bull****! Your understanding of parenthood is zero if you are equating it to a mere biological function, instead of the lifelong, 24/7 love, care, and protection we give our children. What the ***** do you know about that except from a purely academic point of view? You have then gone on to say that since the children are not YOURS the crime can be viewed as neutral - well there you have the crux of the disagreement between parents and non parents on this forum. Though this crime involved a baby not related to me, BECAUSE I am a parent I can empathise TOTALLY with the parents of that child and I know exactly how they would be feeling and the hatred they feel towards the abuser.

It is very easy to be oh so reasonable and distant when you are NOT emotionally involved. The very least the parents of an abused child should be able to expect is that the judicial system punishes the abuser appropriately which, for me, would be locking them up and throwing away the key.

And just for the record, if you truly think that being a parent is simply dipping your wick and fertilising an egg, I suggest you remain childless. A child deserves total emotional investment, and if you don't GET that, maybe you will when you grow up.

Meanwhile don't bother lecturing me about parenthood - your own statements regarding your understanding of what it is to have a child have betrayed your immaturity and insensitivity so your opinion is pretty much compromised.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Lucy.

Death or no death, this is still immoral.

As I have explained numerous times,throw away lines ,as people also say they will kill someone,or rip their heads off,people have taken them far to literally!!! we all say these things but most of us would never carry them out.

[Lucy.]

Originally Posted by kazanne

As I have explained numerous times,throw away lines ,as people also say they will kill someone,or rip their heads off,people have taken them far to literally!!! we all say these things but most of us would never carry them out.

If you say so.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Lucy.

If you say so.

I do!!

[Angus]

Originally Posted by setanta

But you don't understand, do you? It's an illness... these people are sick and acting on compulsions that are beyond their control. I prefer to think of it rationally rather than indulge in emotion when we're dealing with such a taboo subject.

Look, maybe they'll never be cured, but surely we shouldn't be condoning the torture or death of another human being just because they're beyond help? They were burning people at the stake a few centuries ago for problems that we've found cures for or learned more about through science and analysis.

Even if these people are "sick" as opposed to being unbelievably evil and depraved, even more reason to lock them up for good and throw away the key forever. They CANNOT be rehabilitated, they CANNOT be cured, they CANNOT be trusted not to re-offend if released.

BUT the courts are not sentencing these "sick" people appropriately are they?
Nobody is asking anyone else to CONDONE anything - I should imagine if a parent feels failed by the judicial system, the last thing on their mind will be to worry whether others approve of whatever action they might take to get what they might feel is proper justice.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by angus58

Even if these people are "ill" as opposed to being unbelievably evil and depraved, even more reason to lock them up for good and throw away the key forever. They CANNOT be rehabilitated, they CANNOT be cured, they CANNOT be trusted not to re-offend if released.

BUT the courts are not sentencing these "sick" people appropriately are they?
Nobody is asking anyone else to CONDONE anything - I should imagine if a parent feels failed by the judicial system, the last thing on their mind will be to worry whether others approve of whatever action they might take to get what they might feel is proper justice.

But for everyone you lock up and vilify, there'll be another one born. It's an issue that always has been around andwill never just go away.

[Beastie]

I say just kill them. Rehabilitation takes time and OUR money.

Amen.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by MTVN

We should bring back the death penalty for people who tape a kid to a wall now?

if the toddler werent found the toddler would have died that day.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by setanta

But for everyone you lock up and vilify, there'll be another one born. It's an issue that always has been around andwill never just go away.

Well I'm willing to listen to whatever solution you have - or are you saying we should just let them remain free to run around and carry on abusing children (or in this case practically newborn babies)?

Since we can't execute the bastards, and we can't lock them up for life, what do you suggest is done because one way or another children HAVE to be protected - as adults it is our duty to consider their safety over the rights of paedophiles.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by jedward fever

if the toddler werent found the toddler would have died that day.

Yes, but according to some on here the adults involved were only having a bit of fun!

[setanta]

Originally Posted by angus58

Well I'm willing to listen to whatever solution you have - or are you saying we should just let them remain free to run around and carry on abusing children (or in this case practically newborn babies)?

Since we can't execute the bastards, and we can't lock them up for life, what do you suggest is done because one way or another children HAVE to be protected - as adults it is our duty to consider their safety over the rights of paedophiles.

Nothing productive will ever be done when we continue to call them "bastards" and the like. Look, I totally understand where you're coming from, and the resentment and anger you feel towards the individual offender and a negligent judicial system, but like I said before, they'll continue to spring up again and again until we learn more about them through science and observation in a contained enviroment.

[joeysteele]

I dont hold with this 'ill' nonsense at all, these people often have good jobs and professions ,can well control themselves in public.

The only time we hear the 'ill' notion is when they are caught. They are 'sick' alright but only sick in their actions as to their horrendous crimes against Children.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by setanta

But for everyone you lock up and vilify, there'll be another one born. It's an issue that always has been around andwill never just go away.

One day, maybe, the scientists will be able to identify the different genes that cause aberrant behaviours such as paedophilia and no doubt we'll have a whole new set of moral dilemmas to consider, such as should we abort those foetuses that have such and such a gene that might render them a danger to society in the future, or allow them to be born, grow up and perhaps become a serial killer or paedophile? How much is it possible to control the balance of influences between nature and nurture with any degree of certainty?

Till then secure mental hospitals and prisons are the only options available so it is not too much to ask that the judges start handing down punishments that fit the crime.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Lucy.

How ironic. People need to read the posts properly, i.e. you. I said I UNDERSTAND why people want justice for their children, but ending someone's life wether their is a reason for it or not is making you a killer whichever way you choose to look at it. We are not here to play God and choose who dies and who does not. We are also not here to strip people of human rights, taking someone's right to food and protection away from them is unethical and inhumane and why would you want to stoop to that level? Loss of freedom is the punishment of prison which many people fail to realise. Besides, where do you draw the line with what is and what isn't worth death? Who are you to make that distinction? And don't spout off to me about me not being a parent and not understanding, just because you have a child doesn't give you the right to be immoral.

You still haven't read the posts properly have you. How do you equate getting proper justice with murder? There's more than one way to skin a cat. And who are YOU to impose your immature version of morality onto the actions and thoughts of others. In fact what is all this rubbish you are spouting about food, protection, ramble..unethical..ramble..inhumane..?


As to not playing God, we do that every day when we let paedophiles, killers, and rapists back onto our streets to harm and kill innocent people. I believe mealy mouthed, right on do gooders have caused the decline in our Judicial system which no longer has any deterrent value because the sentences are so laughable - now THAT is immoral. Human Rights Legislation that is weighted in favour of the perpetrator of crimes over the victims of crimes - now THAT is immoral. Lawyers who defend scum of the earth criminals and get them off on technicalities, now THAT is immoral. The reason why crime is on the increase is because criminals KNOW that our oh so "civilised and reasonable" society will NOT punish them appropriately.

It's you who needs to get your priorities and values straight before accusing others of being immoral. The very people you say are deserving of equal treatment to LAW ABIDING people are the criminals who are laughing all the way to the cushy prison cells where they can enjoy a brief holiday safe in the knowledge they will be out soon to re-offend.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by angus58

You still haven't read the posts properly have you. How do you equate getting proper justice with murder? There's more than one way to skin a cat. And who are YOU to impose your immature version of morality onto the actions and thoughts of others. In fact what is all this rubbish you are spouting about food, protection, ramble..unethical..ramble..inhumane..?


As to not playing God, we do that every day when we let paedophiles, killers, and rapists back onto our streets to harm and kill innocent people. I believe mealy mouthed, right on do gooders have caused the decline in our Judicial system which no longer has any deterrent value because the sentences are so laughable - now THAT is immoral. Human Rights Legislation that is weighted in favour of the perpetrator of crimes over the victims of crimes - now THAT is immoral. Lawyers who defend scum of the earth criminals and get them off on technicalities, now THAT is immoral. The reason why crime is on the increase is because criminals KNOW that our oh so "civilised and reasonable" society will NOT punish them appropriately.

It's you who needs to get your priorities and values straight before accusing others of being immoral. The very people you say are deserving of equal treatment to LAW ABIDING people are the criminals who are laughing all the way to the cushy prison cells where they can enjoy a brief holiday safe in the knowledge they will be out soon to re-offend.

i completely agree with this and im 14 years of age.

how can anybody tell kazanne off for wanting a pedophiles hands chopped off? and for wanting killers and pedophiles dead i totally agree with them that they should be dead, especially serial killers.

[Lucy.]

Originally Posted by angus58

You still haven't read the posts properly have you. How do you equate getting proper justice with murder? There's more than one way to skin a cat. And who are YOU to impose your immature version of morality onto the actions and thoughts of others. In fact what is all this rubbish you are spouting about food, protection, ramble..unethical..ramble..inhumane..?


As to not playing God, we do that every day when we let paedophiles, killers, and rapists back onto our streets to harm and kill innocent people. I believe mealy mouthed, right on do gooders have caused the decline in our Judicial system which no longer has any deterrent value because the sentences are so laughable - now THAT is immoral. Human Rights Legislation that is weighted in favour of the perpetrator of crimes over the victims of crimes - now THAT is immoral. Lawyers who defend scum of the earth criminals and get them off on technicalities, now THAT is immoral. The reason why crime is on the increase is because criminals KNOW that our oh so "civilised and reasonable" society will NOT punish them appropriately.

It's you who needs to get your priorities and values straight before accusing others of being immoral. The very people you say are deserving of equal treatment to LAW ABIDING people are the criminals who are laughing all the way to the cushy prison cells where they can enjoy a brief holiday safe in the knowledge they will be out soon to re-offend.

As always my point is missed. Prison cells are not 'cushy'. I never said they should get equal treatment that's a pile of bollocks, I said they shouldn't have their rights stripped as that reduces you to their level. Their loss of freedom is the punishment. There are many errors within the criminal justice system, I have never once said otherwise, but deciding to kill people isn't right. That's all there is to it, you have your opinion I have mine, I am now leaving, goodbye!

[Angus]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I dont hold with this 'ill' nonsense at all, these people often have good jobs and professions ,can well control themselves in public.

The only time we hear the 'ill' notion is when they are caught. They are 'sick' alright but only sick in their actions as to their horrendous crimes against Children.

There is an easy way to determine whether someone is "sick" or mentally ill.
If the perpetrator tries to hide their crime, they are not either, if they don't then they are. Sick or mentally ill people do not acknowledge they are doing anything wrong, they believe they are normal, so have no need to hide their behaviour.

Strange then that it can take years to track down paedophiles who are able to conceal their crimes and by doing so are acknowledging that what they are doing is against the law.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by angus58

Yes, but according to some on here the adults involved were only having a bit of fun!

I read that topic and nobody defended the parents so you can stop right there.