[MTVN]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Except that Libya is now probably a worse place to be after the overthrow of Gadaffi.
There is in effect no real law and order there now and we have to take some of the blame for that coming about.
We should have made sure we knew who and what we were dealing with and supporting really before embarking on any action at all.

This is tragic,what is happening to people in effect fleeing for their lives and hoping for a better future, being conned by those offering to take them elsewhere for payment is just another rotten part of this.

There are old people and even children and babies losing their lives in these crossings, it would be inhumane to turn our backs on them and places must be found, even temporarily for them, in order to then try to find a longer term solution.

The UK and France particularly further de-stabalised the area and now really need to step up to the mark to save these peoples lives.
This must be a living nightmare for those people who only want to feel safer and maybe have a future.

Exactly Joey, I wonder if Cameron and Sarkozy are still so pleased with their work

[Ammi]

The ruthless human traffickers charging desperate migrants up to Ł1,300 each to cross the Mediterranean are separating passengers according to race and locking Africans below deck, it has emerged.

More than 1,700 people have died making the perilous voyage in the past week alone and those who survive have told of unimaginable horrors on ships, including starvation, beatings and murders.

Teenagers arriving in Lampedusa told workers from Save the Children how migrants from sub-Saharan African countries were often kept below the deck, deprived of water and sunlight.
A teenage boy from Somalia said he wanted to be called Ali, after his friend who was pushed into the sea alongside other passengers.

"The Libyans who got me to Italy are not human," he said. "They speak with the gun not with words… they pushed eight Nigerians into the sea. And they pushed my friend into the sea. They all drowned."

Ali survived the trip alongside 400 others, telling how he was crammed below the deck with no windows.

"They didn't give us water otherwise we would have to go to the toilet," he said

"There is no toilet on the boat. If you were sick or went up a level to get air the traffickers would shoot you."

Ibrahim, a 17-year-old boy from Somalia, was also forced below the deck. "My boat had about 150 people on it," he said. "The Somalis were put on the bottom level and other nationalities could go on the top level." He had paid Ł1,300 for the journey.

Yusuf, a 17-year-old Palestinian boy who reached Italy in February after fleeing Gaza, said he was put on an upper level with other people from the Middle East

"The traffickers had guns and if you talked they said they would throw you overboard or shoot you."

A spokesperson for Save the Children said many migrants helped by their workers had told similar stories.

"What we hear from numerous migrants arriving in Italy is that migrants from African countries are often treated worse than Middle Eastern or Asian passengers," she said.

"They are often forced to stay in the hold, where they are at greater risk of drowning if the boat capsizes and can become ill from breathing in the petrol fumes.

In July last year, around 100 migrants were massacred by traffickers after they tried to escape a locked hold as fumes spread from the engine

Many of the estimated 900 migrants who drowned after a ship sailing from Libya capsized on Sunday had also been locked below the deck, according to a survivor.

The 32-year-old Bangladeshi man said he only lived because he was on an upper level of the vessel.

"I and the others managed to survive because we were outside, but many of the others remained prisoners in the hold of the boat because the traffickers had locked them in and they finished at the bottom of the sea," he said.



..there are so, so many people who need to be made accountable for these mass murders...and they're treated like less than human, their desperation to survive exploited, I just can't fathom why any country would then turn them away and not want to give them refuge...(if they survived the journey..)...I know housing etc but some kind of shelter could be prioritised if it was focused on..I just think this is far greater than country economics/problems and a world humanitarian issue...

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Exactly Joey, I wonder if Cameron and Sarkozy are still so pleased with their work

They certainly have not a single reason to be, that's for sure.

[arista]

Well done the PM
at the €uro meeting
helping with Security, Helicopters
Navy boats.

And clear to all
"None of these people are going to come to the UK
-- Election on and all"
he said they will taken to Italy


Bang On Right Dave

[arista]

"The ruthless human traffickers charging desperate migrants up to Ł1,300 each to cross the Mediterranean "

They will be Arrested and charged and put in Africa Jail

[joeysteele]

He is wrong to say they all should only be going to Italy, his assistance, such that it is,is all well and good and necessary,very welcome too.
However,it falls well short of being enough.
I believe even the UN are saying the EU countries in particular should be doing more and also taking some of these people for a time at least.

This is an urgent crisis and a human one at that, any Prime Minister of the UK should be in there determined to do everything that should be done to alleviate the ongoing effects of this.

What he shouldn't be doing is avoiding the right, and probably at this time necessary and humane thing, as to giving refuge to some of these people and 'not' being more concerned at the criticisms he would get for doing so from the likes of UKIP because there happens to be an election going on.

What hopeless. weak and sickening leadership..

[arista]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

He is wrong to say they all should only be going to Italy, his assistance, such that it is,is all well and good and necessary,very welcome too.
However,it falls well short of being enough.
I believe even the UN are saying the EU countries in particular should be doing more and also taking some of these people for a time at least.

This is an urgent crisis and a human one at that, any Prime Minister of the UK should be in there determined to do everything that should be done to alleviate the ongoing effects of this.

What he shouldn't be doing is avoiding the right, and probably at this time necessary and humane thing, as to giving refuge to some of these people and 'not' being more concerned at the criticisms he would get for doing so from the likes of UKIP because there happens to be an election going on.

What hopeless. weak and sickening leadership..

No he is right as Italy has a Old USA Base
they put them in until their case is sorted.


Sorted

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

No he is right as Italy has a Old USA Base
they put them in until their case is sorted.


Sorted

I disagree 100%, it wasn't Italy that went into Libya for starters, that was the UK and France.
A good part of this is the massive instability and vile people in control in Libya.

He is right to give the help he is now but he is wrong to expect Italy to continue to take the excess of part of his disastrous policies in Libya that in part is now resulting in this human chaos and nightmare.

He should do the right thing and help alleviate the problems for Italy too on this and allow numbers to come here until a more concrete solution can be found in the future.
It is far from sorted and will never be by this half hearted response,albeit anything is welcome, from David Cameron today.
Terrible leadership and lip service compassion too.

[arista]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I disagree 100%, it wasn't Italy that went into Libya for starters, that was the UK and France.
A good part of this is the massive instability and vile people in control in Libya.

He is right to give the help he is now but he is wrong to expect Italy to continue to take the excess of part of his disastrous policies in Libya that in part is now resulting in this human chaos and nightmare.

He should do the right thing and help alleviate the problems for Italy too on this and allow numbers to come here until a more concrete solution can be found in the future.
It is far from sorted and will never be by this half hearted response,albeit anything is welcome, from David Cameron today.
Terrible leadership and lip service compassion too.

Yes back then we went in
& left
it was not a Takeover.

We are talking about Today
we did know Isis was going to take over loads of nations.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

He is wrong to say they all should only be going to Italy, his assistance, such that it is,is all well and good and necessary,very welcome too.
However,it falls well short of being enough.
I believe even the UN are saying the EU countries in particular should be doing more and also taking some of these people for a time at least.

This is an urgent crisis and a human one at that, any Prime Minister of the UK should be in there determined to do everything that should be done to alleviate the ongoing effects of this.
What he shouldn't be doing is avoiding the right, and probably at this time necessary and humane thing, as to giving refuge to some of these people and 'not' being more concerned at the criticisms he would get for doing so from the likes of UKIP because there happens to be an election going on.

What hopeless. weak and sickening leadership..

Re the part in Bold above...............Why ????

Why should a British Prime Minister get involved in something that concerns people from a different Continent trying to get into a European Country illegally.

Where is the British connection ? This will always be a problem for the Med Countries and they need to make representation to the EU if they need help, but why would a British PM need to get involved.

This is not a humanitarian disaster like an Earthquake or Tsunami which are acts of God, for those situations I believe we should all help the victims.

But this is man made people trafficking and is something the security services of the countries affected should respond to, no one else.......

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Re the part in Bold above...............Why ????

Why should a British Prime Minister get involved in something that concerns people from a different Continent trying to get into a European Country illegally.

Where is the British connection ? This will always be a problem for the Med Countries and they need to make representation to the EU if they need help, but why would a British PM need to get involved.

This is not a humanitarian disaster like an Earthquake or Tsunami which are acts of God, for those situations I believe we should all help the victims.

But this is man made people trafficking and is something the security services of the countries affected should respond to, no one else.......

We were instrumental in the destabilisation of said country.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

We were instrumental in the destabilisation of said country.

Easy for you to say....... truth is these Countries are violently unstable already and we need to ensure that unstable and violent contingent never makes it as far as the UK.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

We were instrumental in the destabilisation of said country.

Sure

But we we asked to go in to save the people
so UK and France bombed and went in
then Left. No Take Over like your Evil Labour


Unlike you Horrible War Criminal Blair/Bush /Iraq

And many Iraqi's are on the Fecking Boat
LADY

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by arista

Sure

But we we asked to go in to save the people
so UK and France bombed and went in
then Left. No Take Over like your Evil Labour


Unlike you Horrible War Criminal Blair/Bush /Iraq

And many Iraqi's are on the Fecking Boat
LADY

He's not MY Blair...I was not a labour supporter during those times, I voted Lib dem during the last election too so I would appreciate it if you didn't align me with Labour support at that time thankyou.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Re the part in Bold above...............Why ????

Why should a British Prime Minister get involved in something that concerns people from a different Continent trying to get into a European Country illegally.

Where is the British connection ? This will always be a problem for the Med Countries and they need to make representation to the EU if they need help, but why would a British PM need to get involved.

This is not a humanitarian disaster like an Earthquake or Tsunami which are acts of God, for those situations I believe we should all help the victims.

But this is man made people trafficking and is something the security services of the countries affected should respond to, no one else.......

I would ask why not.

He along with other UK leaders is a contributer to the unease and problems of fear in some of those areas.

I's not a humatiarian disaster you say, old people, children even babies at risk of losing their lives, people fleeing in fear from countries because of the instabilities there.

You don't call that a humanitarian disaster,I for sure do.

I would expect any decent govt; to be doing all it can to help these epople not leave them to firstly be robbed of likely all they have and them being desperate to find some safety for them and their loved ones.
I for sure would not leave them to drown either,showing not a scrap of concern for their lives.

Then expecting a Nation like Italy.already in turmoil with the numbers being taken there, to virtually insist they still have to take just about all of them, while this PM attempts to grab some attention for in the end doing very little.

Not a humanotarian disaster,people fleeing from homelands in fear, robbed,then at great risk of being drowned.
Wow, I am really glad I myself could never see it that way

[Kizzy]

The immigration status of EU members is different than the rest of the world yes.
UK citizens leaving for Syria is an entirely separate issue to this.
Are the 15 terrorists the survivors accused of murdering the 12 Christians?
I do find your posts hard to decipher as you seem to have 3 different discussions taking place in your one post.

[smudgie]

I am hoping Mr. Cameron sticks to his guns, we have enough problems of our own thank you very much.

We need to try and stop the flow, no way can we take all these people from the rest of the world.

[arista]

Originally Posted by smudgie

I am hoping Mr. Cameron sticks to his guns, we have enough problems of our own thank you very much.

We need to try and stop the flow, no way can we take all these people from the rest of the world.

Yes He has told us so.

Italy is taking them
then other Euro Nations take some
But Not us.

[joeysteele]

Could someone,no matter what they think,help me find anywhere where there has been a trial and that Tony Blair has in fact been found guilty of being a war criminal.
Try as I may I cannot find a single thing as to that 'yet' being a proven fact by a court in this land or also any International court either.
It may well be the opinion or thinking of many but that doesn't make it so until it is conclusively proven.

Has he actually even been charged with any war crimes yet either.

[arista]

Our Battleships
will Search and Destroy
and arrest the the Human Traffickers

Bring It On.

[Helen 28]

Originally Posted by arista

Our Battleships
will Search and Destroy
and arrest the the Human Traffickers

Bring It On.

We haven't had a battleship for over 50 years.

[arista]

Ch4HD News on now

Reported a new 400 Illegals from Gateway Libya Port
in the sea were taken to to the Italy run Island
many were pregnant women.


Its time we stopped their boats from leaving
by destroying them

[Kizzy]

Boats of 'illegals'... When do they cease to be 'people'? When they get on a boat.....when they drown... when they're washed up on European beaches?

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Boats of 'illegals'... When do they cease to be 'people'? When they get on a boat.....when they drown... when they're washed up on European beaches?

Yes they are People, of course
but Nations have enough of Illegals.

[empire]

mediterranean countries don't have the infrastructure to handle it,eastern europe is too poor, denmark,germany,holland,france and britain, are full already, we should let christian ones in, they integrate better, and musilm contries should take musilm ones only, its better than having trouble makers who refuse to leave when there country is stable,