[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Beso

There is a difference though, my words have no direct consequences for another person, whereas your words, which is basically you saying I'm a hateful person(which is rather hateful in itself) have a direct consequence for me.

I have never said you're hateful because I do not think that. I haven't even said you're a homophobe. I have said some of the things you say come across a little homophobic.

I don't believe you intend to offend people with your words, but I do believe you may not realise how they could be perceived.

If I have made you feel like I think you're a hateful person, I apologise because I truly don't think that. I don't know you.

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I have never said you're hateful because I do not think that. I haven't even said you're a homophobe. I have said some of the things you say come across a little homophobic.

I don't believe you intend to offend people with your words, but I do believe you may not realise how they could be perceived.

If I have made you feel like I think you're a hateful person, I apologise because I truly don't think that. I don't know you.

No need to apologise, and I understand you better now. I shall be more carefull in the future so we can both be happier.

[Garfie]

Originally Posted by Beso

There is a difference though, my words have no direct consequences for another person, whereas your words, which is basically you saying I'm a hateful person(which is rather hateful in itself) have a direct consequence for me.

You’re wrong. Your words do have a direct consequence to any LGTBQ+ person in this forum who happens to be reading this thread, or other threads in which you have made similar comments. Those people will have been subject to this sort of thing repeatedly in their lives, and you do it purposely to degrade them and because you know it will have a negative effect.

In my opinion, you also choose to do it all by implication and suggestion as you are fully aware of the consequences of stating it openly.

And know this is coming from a straight person, who has seen it all too often before. Know too, that your words are having a direct consequence on me, by just witnessing them, as they are wrong.

I won’t call you a hateful person, but I will say your actions are hateful. And, I believe you already know that. I’m truly saddened to read this sort of stuff in this day and age.

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by Garfie

You’re wrong. Your words do have a direct consequence to any LGTBQ+ person in this forum who happens to be reading this thread, or other threads in which you have made similar comments. Those people will have been subject to this sort of thing repeatedly in their lives, and you do it purposely to degrade them and because you know it will have a negative effect.

In my opinion, you also choose to do it all by implication and suggestion as you are fully aware of the consequences of stating it openly.

And know this is coming from a straight person, who has seen it all too often before. Know too, that your words are having a direct consequence on me, by just witnessing them, as they are wrong.

I won’t call you a hateful person, but I will say your actions are hateful. And, I believe you already know that. I’m truly saddened to read this sort of stuff in this day and age.

Well can you please tell me what word to use for people who identify as the Q in LGBTQ so I can use that instead.

[GoldHeart]

Can Ali just shut the hell up , can tell it annoys her that Khaled is popular on the outside world. And why is she going on about the other group " protecting themselves and not voting for anyone else", first of all ..I'm pretty sure she's hovering over nom talk ...but ok BB we'll let that one off .

But I'm sorry but isn't she also protecting her friends!??? , she's never going to nominate Lily , Nathan or Dean . So why is she so salty at the other group being " strong" . She wants Hanah on her side , but Hanah is still friends with the boys.

For once Lily said something somewhat optimistic by saying " it will bring us all closer together", of course Ali had to burst that with her negativity...by basically saying " no " .

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by bots

people can use terms in whatever way they want, this is a country of free speech. If something is not regarded as hate speech then it is fine. However, i do accept that laws differ between england and scotland in that regard now

Even hate speech should be allowed imo.

We're meant to be in a country with freedom of speech, and I truly do believe that only harassment or threatening behaviour are the only times that speech should be punished by the law.

[BBXX]

Also I absolutely cannot ignore the fact that you are so outraged that I've called some of your words homophobic yet you will happily label Ali racist based on absolutely no evidence.

[Parmy]

Just to defend myself further, my reasons for saying Ali could be racist is because she felt she had to check on hanah way back when hanah and kahled had their chat after their drama.. and also her beef with kahled from the outset...

She wasn't like that with any other man so why kahled, the young Muslim?

Admittedly I dont think that now. I think it's just men in general.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Beso

Just to defend myself further, my reasons for saying Ali could be racist is because she felt she had to check on hanah way back when hanah and kahled had their chat after their drama.. and also her beef with kahled from the outset...

She wasn't like that with any other man so why kahled, the young Muslim?

Admittedly I dont think that now. I think it's just men in general.

I think it was more her 'feminist' side coming out, and she thought she was protecting Hanah. It was grating though as that conversation with Khaled & Hanah had nothing to do with her .

She pre judges people, especially men in general.

Martha did a similar thing ,when again Khaled was having a private 1 to 1 with Ali ....and Martha felt the need to interrupt to ask Ali " are you ok " . When again it had nothing to do with Martha.

It reminded me

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Beso

Just to defend myself further, my reasons for saying Ali could be racist is because she felt she had to check on hanah way back when hanah and kahled had their chat after their drama.. and also her beef with kahled from the outset...

She wasn't like that with any other man so why kahled, the young Muslim?

Admittedly I dont think that now. I think it's just men in general.

But Hanah is Muslim aswell , so was Izaaz .And Ali got on pretty well with Izaaz . Which actually makes her pyramid argument crumble.

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

But Hanah is Muslim aswell , so was Izaaz .And Ali got on pretty well with Izaaz . Which actually makes her pyramid argument crumble.

Thats why I dont believe it now..dont really believe the man thing either now because shes always rubbing Marcellos back in praise, even after her disgust at his I'll timed choice of language.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Beso

Thats why I dont believe it now..dont really believe the man thing either now because shes always rubbing Marcellos back in praise, even after her disgust at his I'll timed choice of language.

I think that we should be respecting Ali's sexuality.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

But Hanah is Muslim aswell , so was Izaaz .And Ali got on pretty well with Izaaz . Which actually makes her pyramid argument crumble.

Ali liked Izaaz because he had next to zero masculinity.

I honestly think that Ali and Dean need to sort through their issues with masculinity when they both leave the house, because they've got some serious issues in that area.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Ali liked Izaaz because he had next to zero masculinity.

I honestly think that Ali and Dean need to sort through their issues with masculinity when they both leave the house, because they've got some serious issues in that area.

Yeah Ali & Dean need counselling by looks of it , it's not healthy .

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

Yeah Ali & Dean need counselling by looks of it , it's not healthy .

Ali in particular should know better as a 38 year old.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Ali liked Izaaz because he had next to zero masculinity.

I honestly think that Ali and Dean need to sort through their issues with masculinity when they both leave the house, because they've got some serious issues in that area.

Phat chance. (I just wanted to use the word phat in a TiBB post...)

They probably don't think there is anything they're missing out on. Some people act like masculinity is everywhere and anywhere and it's like Vitamin D (no dick puns intended), just go outside and you'll get some... some of us are old enough to know better that what was considered masculine in prior times is not how it is described as now... and what's described of many categories like this are often cartoonish descriptions of what used to be elaborate/complex topics that can take a lifetime to explore and expand upon (especially in oneself). Meanings/impressions that aren't easily nailed down and oversimplified are easily butchered in this way and that's a cultish thing to do which is to take massively complex things such as the sex of a human being (how that is derived from personality-wise and expressed in the culture... not just influenced by culture... which is where people get stuck...) and condense it down to portions in a recipe, or in this case a pyramid... but Ali herself holds a minor in Cartoons, so no surprise there.

However, I do think it does it a disservice to oversimplify such things that one actually develops negative associations just hearing the word ... I can't imagine hating or disliking something that is a substantial part of being a human being.. something that he is and that I think is expressed well by him... it's like hating the sun because it takes up too much time in your day and you're forced to wear sunscreen if you get too much of it... But because this is acceptable depth of dealing with complex topics in the mainstream, more and more take liberties with complex topics and giving haphazard depictions of things (while tossing in their own experiences to personify these matters). Some of that is just because of the limitations of communicating on complex topics while trying to relate that back to one's own experiences to those they are having important discussions... that's understandable... others, who knows what they're actually talking about... they become so sure they've got the whole thing bagged and can easily discuss it all in one go with a position of authority, that they basically have nothing at all to say other than "this one thing makes me mad" "This other thing is great, though... here's why we should do more of that..."... it's all preferences and doesn't scratch the surface as to how masculinity/femininity (and the balance of that) make our way of living so unique and special as just human beings...

For example, today... Dean says he doesn't "like" "masculinity". What does that actually mean (per Dean?). We don't know, but we can assume it's bad right. So we pull out our little Rolodex from within of all the things he's hating about masculinity... but then he adds toxic... did he have to add toxic?... is that not just a moniker for extra masculinity? ... well, we know what many can say about that, but what does that actually mean? Does even just the term toxic mean the same thing to most people... we can ask 20 different people what something like that is to them and they can give an explanation for it and they can all come up with very different ideas that are more like a jello mold of mumbojumbo than something most people can work with and develop a more concise relationship to those things in themselves and in their life.. it's stuck around what it could mean to someone. So for me, these topics get discussed far too often in a very fickle manner...

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Maru

Phat chance. (I just wanted to use the word phat in a TiBB post...)

They probably don't think there is anything they're missing out on. Some people act like masculinity is everywhere and anywhere and it's like Vitamin D (no dick puns intended), just go outside and you'll get some... some of us are old enough to know better that what was considered masculine in prior times is not how it is described as now... and what's described of many categories like this are often cartoonish descriptions of what used to be elaborate/complex topics that can take a lifetime to explore and expand upon (especially in oneself). Meanings/impressions that aren't easily nailed down and oversimplified are easily butchered in this way and that's a cultish thing to do which is to take massively complex things such as the sex of a human being (how that is derived from personality-wise and expressed in the culture... not just influenced by culture... which is where people get stuck...) and condense it down to portions in a recipe, or in this case a pyramid... but Ali herself holds a minor in Cartoons, so no surprise there.

However, I do think it does it a disservice to oversimplify such things that one actually develops negative associations just hearing the word ... I can't imagine hating or disliking something that is a substantial part of being a human being.. something that he is and that I think is expressed well by him... it's like hating the sun because it takes up too much time in your day and you're forced to wear sunscreen if you get too much of it... But because this is acceptable depth of dealing with complex topics in the mainstream, more and more take liberties with complex topics and giving haphazard depictions of things (while tossing in their own experiences to personify these matters). Some of that is just because of the limitations of communicating on complex topics while trying to relate that back to one's own experiences to those they are having important discussions... that's understandable... others, who knows what they're actually talking about... they become so sure they've got the whole thing bagged and can easily discuss it all in one go with a position of authority, that they basically have nothing at all to say other than "this one thing makes me mad" "This other thing is great, though... here's why we should do more of that..."... it's all preferences and doesn't scratch the surface as to how masculinity/femininity (and the balance of that) make our way of living so unique and special as just human beings...

For example, today... Dean says he doesn't "like" "masculinity". What does that actually mean (per Dean?). We don't know, but we can assume it's bad right. So we pull out our little Rolodex from within of all the things he's hating about masculinity... but then he adds toxic... did he have to add toxic?... is that not just a moniker for extra masculinity? ... well, we know what many can say about that, but what does that actually mean? Does even just the term toxic mean the same thing to most people... we can ask 20 different people what something like that is to them and they can give an explanation for it and they can all come up with very different ideas that are more like a jello mold of mumbojumbo than something most people can work with and develop a more concise relationship to those things in themselves and in their life.. it's stuck around what it could mean to someone. So for me, these topics get discussed far too often in a very fickle manner...

You've made a lot of good points tbh.

And tbf, I don't see myself as the most macho guy that's ever existed (although who knows from Ali & Dean's perspective) but it does look like to me that Dean has a very low threshold for masculine traits, if Marcello is "toxic masculinity" to him.

Tbf I'm gathering that he has had bad experiences with macho men (so I'm trying not to be too mean) but it's very hard not to be when he went at someone that has never been malicious towards Dean once in the house in Marcello.

And I did chuckle at "phat chance" btw.

[Parmy]

You should really post the threads all those were said in, for true context...cause the tv one was said because we have had high profile cases of gay tv stars messing up..


The bumming in jail happens, only a fool would deny that, and that was said in an argument about fighting for the uk or going to jail..


The rape in these bars comment was about a rape in a gay bar where staff stood by and let a drug dealer rape someone in manchester.

Gay you gotta stay, was uttered by me when I was saying uf Ali can go from straight relationships to lesbian relationships, then there is no reason why she couldntcrevert back to a straight relationship


I once even said 2 paedophiles could pretend to be gay in order to adopt a child to abuse from that came an accusation that us still used against me which is that I think all gays are paedos.. a slanderous accusation, much like the way this is going.

[BBXX]

None of that was a good defence, I hope you understand. I'm not engaging with you on this any further, the topic had been derailed enough.

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by BBXX

None of that was a good defence, I hope you understand. I'm not engaging with you on this any further, the topic had been derailed enough.

Coming back to post about me in a long winded attempt at a gotcha moment to another user then saying the above is nothing more than a **** house move.

[Parmy]

Like goldheart, think the best of.

Dislike beso, think the worst of.

Its that simple fur you garfie, thats why you claim to know why I said it..


Real reason us I thought 3 queers was catchy, and seeing as ali named them the queers, and there was 3 of them, and because if the bedroom chat about influencing hanah to come to their group of 3, I used the catchphrase 3 queer alliance for them.

I also stated I wouldnt use it again because it may upset people but you've skirted past that and claimed I'm continuing to use it even after the hurt it can cause was explained.

[Parmy]

Thank you @Maru the feeling has always been mutual.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Beso

Thank you @Maru the feeling has always been mutual.

You're very welcome

[BBXX]

There are many traits that define masculinity that make society thrive and it’s important to remember that. Dean just saying he doesn’t like masculinity is poor and over simplified to the point of being discriminatory.

Marcello has shown one behaviour I would consider a trait of toxic masculinity and that is his ongoing sexualisation of women, and objectification when they call him out “She called me out for being sexual and making her feel uncomfortable now she’s made me feel like a victim. Boo hoo.” He’s done this on. A few occasions and it’s extremely entitled.

But Marcello has also shown some of the best aspects of what a masculinity can be - he’s shown he has a caring and tender nature towards those in need, he’s pulling his weight in a house where others aren’t and providing for the HMs through food and when approached with conflict he portrays himself in a thoughtful and calm manner, unlike Dean who has an inability of controlling his emotions unlike any man in there which is, ironically, also a behaviour of toxic masculinity he hates so much.

Like Mock, I feel like its possible Dean has had bad experiences with very masculine men, and on a personal level I do understand how that creates a negative manifestation of a certain behaviour type, but to extrapolate that that masculinity as a general sense is essentially sexist. And then to level that at Marcello feels super unjust.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Dean just saying he doesn’t like masculinity is poor and over simplified to the point of being discriminatory.

Indeed.

He freely admits that he discriminates on the outside and his attitude is toxic. Dean is a bigot who sees 'toxic masculinity' in everything that he just doesn't personally like.

But, he is the kind of dickhead that thinks being gay and wearing the latest off the peg hipster clone fashion makes a person inherently superior, so shouldn't be taken seriously I guess.

Wow this thread has seen a lot of different ground covered