[Garfie]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

I completely understand you , but there's alot of double standards . I've seen comments mocking Khaled & Segun's sexuality....as if somehow they're both secretly in the closet or something, those same people then hit the roof when Ali's sexuality is being mocked & disrespected. I wish there was consistency.

I've seen it from all sides on here. I wish people would stop the sniping and getting personal .

I completely agree with you regarding this, and I’ve noticed there are even threads with such headings, and all based on no evidence or even any small sign.

The difference in the situation I responded to, though, was that it wasn’t focused purely on housemates, but on mocking LGBTQ+ people in general, and specifically targeted at a LGBTQ+ member of the forum. That’s something completely different and more serious.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Beso

Thank you @Maru the feeling has always been mutual.

You're very welcome

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by bots

people can use terms in whatever way they want, this is a country of free speech. If something is not regarded as hate speech then it is fine. However, i do accept that laws differ between england and scotland in that regard now

Even hate speech should be allowed imo.

We're meant to be in a country with freedom of speech, and I truly do believe that only harassment or threatening behaviour are the only times that speech should be punished by the law.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Garfie

I don’t think you’re wrong in this suggestion at all, as I believe both things can be true at the same time, in respect that people can have more than one motive for carrying out any particular action.

On an emotional level, Ali might well have felt genuine empathy for Hanah, whilst on an intellectual level she might have recognised that Hanah could help her feel a greater sense of security in adding numbers to her group. To add to that, on a sub-conscious level, her background in psychology might have triggered her analytical thinking, and taken her comfortably into the role of counselling or calming down a person in distress.

The truth is none of us truly know what another person’s motives might be, and ironically Ali might not even be fully aware of her own motives, or she might perceive them differently to others.

In just the same way, members of the forum will perceive Ali differently, depending on their own backgrounds, knowledge and experiences. Most of what is expressed on here in terms of assessing or judging a housemate’s character, is personal opinion based on individual perception, as that’s all it can be. It’s one of the reasons I always try to clearly present my opinions as just that, rather than stating them as fact. In reality, no-one can claim they are more right than anyone else, and as long as opinions are based on justifiable evidence, everyone’s is equally valid.

I agree with your points.

And I am trying to not see any of the Housemates as sub-Human like I could do a little bit in other Series, so I'm trying to see the good in all of the Housemates.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

But Hanah is Muslim aswell , so was Izaaz .And Ali got on pretty well with Izaaz . Which actually makes her pyramid argument crumble.

Ali liked Izaaz because he had next to zero masculinity.

I honestly think that Ali and Dean need to sort through their issues with masculinity when they both leave the house, because they've got some serious issues in that area.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Beso

Thats why I dont believe it now..dont really believe the man thing either now because shes always rubbing Marcellos back in praise, even after her disgust at his I'll timed choice of language.

I think that we should be respecting Ali's sexuality.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Ali liked Izaaz because he had next to zero masculinity.

I honestly think that Ali and Dean need to sort through their issues with masculinity when they both leave the house, because they've got some serious issues in that area.

Yeah Ali & Dean need counselling by looks of it , it's not healthy .

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

Yeah Ali & Dean need counselling by looks of it , it's not healthy .

Ali in particular should know better as a 38 year old.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Ali liked Izaaz because he had next to zero masculinity.

I honestly think that Ali and Dean need to sort through their issues with masculinity when they both leave the house, because they've got some serious issues in that area.

Phat chance. (I just wanted to use the word phat in a TiBB post...)

They probably don't think there is anything they're missing out on. Some people act like masculinity is everywhere and anywhere and it's like Vitamin D (no dick puns intended), just go outside and you'll get some... some of us are old enough to know better that what was considered masculine in prior times is not how it is described as now... and what's described of many categories like this are often cartoonish descriptions of what used to be elaborate/complex topics that can take a lifetime to explore and expand upon (especially in oneself). Meanings/impressions that aren't easily nailed down and oversimplified are easily butchered in this way and that's a cultish thing to do which is to take massively complex things such as the sex of a human being (how that is derived from personality-wise and expressed in the culture... not just influenced by culture... which is where people get stuck...) and condense it down to portions in a recipe, or in this case a pyramid... but Ali herself holds a minor in Cartoons, so no surprise there.

However, I do think it does it a disservice to oversimplify such things that one actually develops negative associations just hearing the word ... I can't imagine hating or disliking something that is a substantial part of being a human being.. something that he is and that I think is expressed well by him... it's like hating the sun because it takes up too much time in your day and you're forced to wear sunscreen if you get too much of it... But because this is acceptable depth of dealing with complex topics in the mainstream, more and more take liberties with complex topics and giving haphazard depictions of things (while tossing in their own experiences to personify these matters). Some of that is just because of the limitations of communicating on complex topics while trying to relate that back to one's own experiences to those they are having important discussions... that's understandable... others, who knows what they're actually talking about... they become so sure they've got the whole thing bagged and can easily discuss it all in one go with a position of authority, that they basically have nothing at all to say other than "this one thing makes me mad" "This other thing is great, though... here's why we should do more of that..."... it's all preferences and doesn't scratch the surface as to how masculinity/femininity (and the balance of that) make our way of living so unique and special as just human beings...

For example, today... Dean says he doesn't "like" "masculinity". What does that actually mean (per Dean?). We don't know, but we can assume it's bad right. So we pull out our little Rolodex from within of all the things he's hating about masculinity... but then he adds toxic... did he have to add toxic?... is that not just a moniker for extra masculinity? ... well, we know what many can say about that, but what does that actually mean? Does even just the term toxic mean the same thing to most people... we can ask 20 different people what something like that is to them and they can give an explanation for it and they can all come up with very different ideas that are more like a jello mold of mumbojumbo than something most people can work with and develop a more concise relationship to those things in themselves and in their life.. it's stuck around what it could mean to someone. So for me, these topics get discussed far too often in a very fickle manner...

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Maru

Phat chance. (I just wanted to use the word phat in a TiBB post...)

They probably don't think there is anything they're missing out on. Some people act like masculinity is everywhere and anywhere and it's like Vitamin D (no dick puns intended), just go outside and you'll get some... some of us are old enough to know better that what was considered masculine in prior times is not how it is described as now... and what's described of many categories like this are often cartoonish descriptions of what used to be elaborate/complex topics that can take a lifetime to explore and expand upon (especially in oneself). Meanings/impressions that aren't easily nailed down and oversimplified are easily butchered in this way and that's a cultish thing to do which is to take massively complex things such as the sex of a human being (how that is derived from personality-wise and expressed in the culture... not just influenced by culture... which is where people get stuck...) and condense it down to portions in a recipe, or in this case a pyramid... but Ali herself holds a minor in Cartoons, so no surprise there.

However, I do think it does it a disservice to oversimplify such things that one actually develops negative associations just hearing the word ... I can't imagine hating or disliking something that is a substantial part of being a human being.. something that he is and that I think is expressed well by him... it's like hating the sun because it takes up too much time in your day and you're forced to wear sunscreen if you get too much of it... But because this is acceptable depth of dealing with complex topics in the mainstream, more and more take liberties with complex topics and giving haphazard depictions of things (while tossing in their own experiences to personify these matters). Some of that is just because of the limitations of communicating on complex topics while trying to relate that back to one's own experiences to those they are having important discussions... that's understandable... others, who knows what they're actually talking about... they become so sure they've got the whole thing bagged and can easily discuss it all in one go with a position of authority, that they basically have nothing at all to say other than "this one thing makes me mad" "This other thing is great, though... here's why we should do more of that..."... it's all preferences and doesn't scratch the surface as to how masculinity/femininity (and the balance of that) make our way of living so unique and special as just human beings...

For example, today... Dean says he doesn't "like" "masculinity". What does that actually mean (per Dean?). We don't know, but we can assume it's bad right. So we pull out our little Rolodex from within of all the things he's hating about masculinity... but then he adds toxic... did he have to add toxic?... is that not just a moniker for extra masculinity? ... well, we know what many can say about that, but what does that actually mean? Does even just the term toxic mean the same thing to most people... we can ask 20 different people what something like that is to them and they can give an explanation for it and they can all come up with very different ideas that are more like a jello mold of mumbojumbo than something most people can work with and develop a more concise relationship to those things in themselves and in their life.. it's stuck around what it could mean to someone. So for me, these topics get discussed far too often in a very fickle manner...

You've made a lot of good points tbh.

And tbf, I don't see myself as the most macho guy that's ever existed (although who knows from Ali & Dean's perspective) but it does look like to me that Dean has a very low threshold for masculine traits, if Marcello is "toxic masculinity" to him.

Tbf I'm gathering that he has had bad experiences with macho men (so I'm trying not to be too mean) but it's very hard not to be when he went at someone that has never been malicious towards Dean once in the house in Marcello.

And I did chuckle at "phat chance" btw.

[BBXX]

There are many traits that define masculinity that make society thrive and it’s important to remember that. Dean just saying he doesn’t like masculinity is poor and over simplified to the point of being discriminatory.

Marcello has shown one behaviour I would consider a trait of toxic masculinity and that is his ongoing sexualisation of women, and objectification when they call him out “She called me out for being sexual and making her feel uncomfortable now she’s made me feel like a victim. Boo hoo.” He’s done this on. A few occasions and it’s extremely entitled.

But Marcello has also shown some of the best aspects of what a masculinity can be - he’s shown he has a caring and tender nature towards those in need, he’s pulling his weight in a house where others aren’t and providing for the HMs through food and when approached with conflict he portrays himself in a thoughtful and calm manner, unlike Dean who has an inability of controlling his emotions unlike any man in there which is, ironically, also a behaviour of toxic masculinity he hates so much.

Like Mock, I feel like its possible Dean has had bad experiences with very masculine men, and on a personal level I do understand how that creates a negative manifestation of a certain behaviour type, but to extrapolate that that masculinity as a general sense is essentially sexist. And then to level that at Marcello feels super unjust.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Dean just saying he doesn’t like masculinity is poor and over simplified to the point of being discriminatory.

Indeed.

He freely admits that he discriminates on the outside and his attitude is toxic. Dean is a bigot who sees 'toxic masculinity' in everything that he just doesn't personally like.

But, he is the kind of dickhead that thinks being gay and wearing the latest off the peg hipster clone fashion makes a person inherently superior, so shouldn't be taken seriously I guess.

Wow this thread has seen a lot of different ground covered

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Ali in particular should know better as a 38 year old.

I would say that Dean and Ali both have a lot of daddy issues that need working out for sure.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by BBXX

There are many traits that define masculinity that make society thrive and it’s important to remember that. Dean just saying he doesn’t like masculinity is poor and over simplified to the point of being discriminatory.

Marcello has shown one behaviour I would consider a trait of toxic masculinity and that is his ongoing sexualisation of women, and objectification when they call him out “She called me out for being sexual and making her feel uncomfortable now she’s made me feel like a victim. Boo hoo.” He’s done this on. A few occasions and it’s extremely entitled.

But Marcello has also shown some of the best aspects of what a masculinity can be - he’s shown he has a caring and tender nature towards those in need, he’s pulling his weight in a house where others aren’t and providing for the HMs through food and when approached with conflict he portrays himself in a thoughtful and calm manner, unlike Dean who has an inability of controlling his emotions unlike any man in there which is, ironically, also a behaviour of toxic masculinity he hates so much.

Like Mock, I feel like its possible Dean has had bad experiences with very masculine men, and on a personal level I do understand how that creates a negative manifestation of a certain behaviour type, but to extrapolate that that masculinity as a general sense is essentially sexist. And then to level that at Marcello feels super unjust.

I do agree with you that Marcello has had certain moments with the female Housemates that I personally haven't liked, I won't lie on that.

I think that if Dean had've mentioned that I might've understood where he was coming from more, but attacking him for being masculine full stop like you've said yourself is kind of prejudiced in it's own weird sort of way.

Plus him pulling Marcello up on wanting to cook is incredibly personal in a different way to what I'm used to seeing on Big Brother full stop.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by vesavius

I would say that Dean and Ali both have a lot of daddy issues that need working out for sure.

Whatever the issues are they seriously need to try and fix it.

Especially Dean as he has an issue with a large portion of his own gender, that's seriously ****ed up.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Ali in particular should know better as a 38 year old.

It's as if both Dean & Ali are waiting for the people they irrational dislike to screw up ,so they can go " see there I told you " . Of course it doesn't matter that they can throw around accusations,and be really nasty in how they treat them ... especially Dean last night.

They are going out of their way to be offended by people like Marcello,Sarah & Khaled.

[Garfie]

Originally Posted by BBXX

There are many traits that define masculinity that make society thrive and it’s important to remember that. Dean just saying he doesn’t like masculinity is poor and over simplified to the point of being discriminatory.

Marcello has shown one behaviour I would consider a trait of toxic masculinity and that is his ongoing sexualisation of women, and objectification when they call him out “She called me out for being sexual and making her feel uncomfortable now she’s made me feel like a victim. Boo hoo.” He’s done this on. A few occasions and it’s extremely entitled.

But Marcello has also shown some of the best aspects of what a masculinity can be - he’s shown he has a caring and tender nature towards those in need, he’s pulling his weight in a house where others aren’t and providing for the HMs through food and when approached with conflict he portrays himself in a thoughtful and calm manner, unlike Dean who has an inability of controlling his emotions unlike any man in there which is, ironically, also a behaviour of toxic masculinity he hates so much.

Like Mock, I feel like its possible Dean has had bad experiences with very masculine men, and on a personal level I do understand how that creates a negative manifestation of a certain behaviour type, but to extrapolate that that masculinity as a general sense is essentially sexist. And then to level that at Marcello feels super unjust.

Great post!

Such an intelligent, rational and well-balanced comment, in which you emphasise the complexities of human beings, and thereby, quite logically, housemates too. Respect to you.

You clearly demonstrate that all housemates have both positive and negative character traits, and cannot merely be reduced into one-dimensional personalities, on which all future actions should be interpreted or judged.

There is no need for the polarisation that takes place when discussing housemates, or for the extremes of either intense hatred or unwavering support that emerges towards (or within housemates), depending on fixed views formed from just one or two characteristics.

You demonstrate such a great ability to stand back, and take an intelligent overview of housemates and situations.

[Garfie]

Originally Posted by vesavius

Indeed.

He freely admits that he discriminates on the outside and his attitude is toxic. Dean is a bigot who sees 'toxic masculinity' in everything that he just doesn't personally like.
:

Good point. This is where Dean can lack self-awareness and react from a place of very rigid thinking, thereby creating a negative impression of himself and of LGBTQ+ thinking.

Did you see L&L, in which Danny Beard, as someone who is LGBTQ+ himself, gently and sensitively addressed this with Dean? He expressed himself so effectively, and it seemed to genuinely make Dean stop and think.

I’ve not come across Danny Beard before his appearance on L&L but that guy, as a nightly guest on the show this week, has made so many intelligent points that have impressed me. Credit to him. What a great guy.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Garfie

Good point. This is where Dean can lack self-awareness and react from a place of very rigid thinking, thereby creating a negative impression of himself and of LGBTQ+ thinking.

Did you see L&L, in which Danny Beard, as someone who is LGBTQ+ himself, gently and sensitively addressed this with Dean? He expressed himself so effectively, and it seemed to genuinely make Dean stop and think.

I’ve not come across Danny Beard before his appearance on L&L but that guy, as a nightly guest on the show this week, has made so many intelligent points that have impressed me. Credit to him. What a great guy.

No, I haven't bothered with L&L since ITV started with BB.. I will make sure to have a look at this though.

[Beso]

Sick off having to change the name of this alliance.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Beso

Sick off having to change the name of this alliance.

[Garfie]

Originally Posted by vesavius

I would say that Dean and Ali both have a lot of daddy issues that need working out for sure.

I think we have to remember that Ali is on the Autistic Spectrum, and therefore her thinking and perceptions will be affected by that. It’s not a case of having issues, necessarily, but a case of having a condition.

Having said that, I would agree that she would benefit from working on her very negative and rigid thinking, which is something those with ASD - through no fault of their own - need to be guided and supported to do, as these are not pleasant or helpful thought processes to anyone on the Spectrum. In fact, this mindset will be exacerbated by stressful situations and create further stress in itself, which might be why Ali seems to feel so negative and unhappy.

Strangely enough, on L&L, Dean seemed to have very similar thought processes to Ali, in terms of his very rigid thinking and lack of self-awareness, as well as in his inability to recognise how to appropriately express himself in social situations. These are all Autistic traits, and the thought that went through my mind as I observed him, was that, if he was one of my students, I would certainly be trying to provide him with the benefits of assessments for this.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Garfie

I think we have to remember that Ali is on the Autistic Spectrum

Well.. She has self-diagnosed herself as being on the spectrum.

Originally Posted by Garfie

Strangely enough, on L&L, Dean seemed to have very similar thought processes to Ali, in terms of his very rigid thinking and lack of self-awareness, as well as in his inability to recognise how to appropriately express himself in social situations. These are all Autistic traits

I have to disagree here. Well, they might be autistic traits I agree (I DM for a social club playing D&D with Asperger kids) but having them doesn't make you necessarily autistic.

It's just my personal view based on what we have seen here but I don't see Ali as that or if she is it's so mild as to be irrelevant. That's just my personal view on the TV that we have seen though. I could be wrong I know.

[Garfie]

Originally Posted by vesavius

No, I haven't bothered with L&L since ITV started with BB.. I will make sure to have a look at this though.

I don’t rate all guests, but I find this guy to be really perceptive - he thinks about people and situations on a deeper level and is able to express his views clearly and intelligently.

He also seems to have a kindness and sensitivity that gives him a natural ability to approach others in a way that makes them feel comfortable, and also encourages them to be open to rethinking and reassessing their own views, where necessary.

He’s the sort of person I feel would be really interesting to sit down and have discussions with. Good on Danny Beard, whoever you are!

I’d definitely recommend taking a look, Vesavius.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Garfie

I don’t rate all guests, but I find this guy to be really perceptive - he thinks about people and situations on a deeper level and is able to express his views clearly and intelligently.

He also seems to have a kindness and sensitivity that gives him a natural ability to approach others in a way that makes them feel comfortable, and also encourages them to be open to rethinking and reassessing their own views, where necessary.

He’s the sort of person I feel would be really interesting to sit down and have discussions with. Good on Danny Beard, whoever you are!

I’d definitely recommend taking a look, Vesavius.

cool, will do