[boomoo]

Originally Posted by RobInnes

One racist comment doesn't make you a complete bigot in my opinion....But I don't really know the full story tbh.

But you do know the full story.
You summed it up nicely one racist comment said in exasperation describing a footballer. That's it.

[joeysteele]

I like Ron Atkinson, he is an absolute legend to one of my older Brothers as a football manager.
As to the racist issue. I am against prejudice of any kind and I have pulled even some casual friends up on what I felt may be deemed just bordering on racist comments.

However, unless they were clearly racist and I have come across people who are,I am not going to hold one or even a few comments against them all through life and not be able to see the other good sides to them too.
If they persisted in inappropriate comments then I would then cut them off because I wouldn't want to be associated with them because of that.

I don't however see Ron as a racist,he made a silly comment and has been got at ever since,however his actions do not follow a racist path in my view.
People who are really racist,in the main, cannot hide it and they certainly afford no merits or hand recognition to black people,or indeed other races either.
Over his long and varied football career,Ron has not only selected black players for his teams,he has nurtured them too, suppporting them and opening the door to successful careers for them.
That is not the actions of a racist, when they have authority and power over others lives and livelihoods.

Some people however, don't climb down easily, there are times it has almost been like pulling someones teeth out, just to get them to admit they made a mistake or that they were sorry.
I think that could be a problem with Ron, he doesn't back down easily,that may well be a flaw to his character but does not in any way substantiate any racist allegations against him.

I don't see him winning CBB, he may be the first out even but I like him and hope he is in for a fair while.
I don't really consider it fair to brand him a racist though when in fact there have never been any official allegations of racist activity from or by him and although throwaway comments can be offensive,they in themself do not constitute someone is racist either.

To my knowledge,he has not said anything further from that incident that could be considered racist as a comment, so I see nothing from his 'actions' that even indicate he may even be,let alone is.

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I like Ron Atkinson, he is an absolute legend to one of my older Brothers as a football manager.
As to the racist issue. I am against prejudice of any kind and I have pulled even some casual friends up on what I felt may be deemed just bordering on racist comments.

However, unless they were clearly racist and I have come across people who are,I am not going to hold one or even a few comments against them all through life and not be able to see the other good sides to them too.
If they persisted in inappropriate comments then I would then cut them off because I wouldn't want to be associated with them because of that.

I don't however see Ron as a racist,he made a silly comment and has been got at ever since,however his actions do not follow a racist path in my view.
People who are really racist,in the main, cannot hide it and they certainly afford no merits or hand recognition to black people,or indeed other races either.
Over his long and varied football career,Ron has not only selected black players for his teams,he has nurtured them too, suppporting them and opening the door to successful careers for them.
That is not the actions of a racist, when they have authority and power over others lives and livelihoods.

Some people however, don't climb down easily, there are times it has almost been like pulling someones teeth out, just to get them to admit they made a mistake or that they were sorry.
I think that could be a problem with Ron, he doesn't back down easily,that may well be a flaw to his character but does not in any way substantiate any racist allegations against him.

I don't see him winning CBB, he may be the first out even but I like him and hope he is in for a fair while.
I don't really consider it fair to brand him a racist though when in fact there have never been any official allegations of racist activity from or by him and although throwaway comments can be offensive,they in themself do not constitute someone is racist either.

To my knowledge,he has not said anything further from that incident that could be considered racist as a comment, so I see nothing from his 'actions' that even indicate he may even be,let alone is.

I think he has a massive chance of winning,.hes a lovely man

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I like Ron Atkinson, he is an absolute legend to one of my older Brothers as a football manager.
As to the racist issue. I am against prejudice of any kind and I have pulled even some casual friends up on what I felt may be deemed just bordering on racist comments.

However, unless they were clearly racist and I have come across people who are,I am not going to hold one or even a few comments against them all through life and not be able to see the other good sides to them too.
If they persisted in inappropriate comments then I would then cut them off because I wouldn't want to be associated with them because of that.

I don't however see Ron as a racist,he made a silly comment and has been got at ever since,however his actions do not follow a racist path in my view.
People who are really racist,in the main, cannot hide it and they certainly afford no merits or hand recognition to black people,or indeed other races either.
Over his long and varied football career,Ron has not only selected black players for his teams,he has nurtured them too, suppporting them and opening the door to successful careers for them.
That is not the actions of a racist, when they have authority and power over others lives and livelihoods.

Some people however, don't climb down easily, there are times it has almost been like pulling someones teeth out, just to get them to admit they made a mistake or that they were sorry.
I think that could be a problem with Ron, he doesn't back down easily,that may well be a flaw to his character but does not in any way substantiate any racist allegations against him.

I don't see him winning CBB, he may be the first out even but I like him and hope he is in for a fair while.
I don't really consider it fair to brand him a racist though when in fact there have never been any official allegations of racist activity from or by him and although throwaway comments can be offensive,they in themself do not constitute someone is racist either.

To my knowledge,he has not said anything further from that incident that could be considered racist as a comment, so I see nothing from his 'actions' that even indicate he may even be,let alone is.

..that's a good post Joey..I do agree with a lot of it although I don't think what he said could be described as a silly comment at all, it was an absolute racist comment and not in another 'era' either..but I also believe that he has done many positive things for different races in football and that can't be ignored either, one racist comment doesn't define him because of everything positive he is or has been in his career....he hasn't to my knowledge either said anything similar to that again...I'm not a huge fan myself, but because he doesn't really stand for much I admire in a person..but I don't think he's a racist either...

[Drew.]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I like Ron Atkinson, he is an absolute legend to one of my older Brothers as a football manager.
As to the racist issue. I am against prejudice of any kind and I have pulled even some casual friends up on what I felt may be deemed just bordering on racist comments.

However, unless they were clearly racist and I have come across people who are,I am not going to hold one or even a few comments against them all through life and not be able to see the other good sides to them too.
If they persisted in inappropriate comments then I would then cut them off because I wouldn't want to be associated with them because of that.

I don't however see Ron as a racist,he made a silly comment and has been got at ever since,however his actions do not follow a racist path in my view.
People who are really racist,in the main, cannot hide it and they certainly afford no merits or hand recognition to black people,or indeed other races either.
Over his long and varied football career,Ron has not only selected black players for his teams,he has nurtured them too, suppporting them and opening the door to successful careers for them.
That is not the actions of a racist, when they have authority and power over others lives and livelihoods.

Some people however, don't climb down easily, there are times it has almost been like pulling someones teeth out, just to get them to admit they made a mistake or that they were sorry.
I think that could be a problem with Ron, he doesn't back down easily,that may well be a flaw to his character but does not in any way substantiate any racist allegations against him.

I don't see him winning CBB, he may be the first out even but I like him and hope he is in for a fair while.
I don't really consider it fair to brand him a racist though when in fact there have never been any official allegations of racist activity from or by him and although throwaway comments can be offensive,they in themself do not constitute someone is racist either.

To my knowledge,he has not said anything further from that incident that could be considered racist as a comment, so I see nothing from his 'actions' that even indicate he may even be,let alone is.

great post, completely agree

[Lord Of The Garden]

*

It's all about context. The N- word has become a very taboo word these days but it was not always the case years ago.

For example in the 'Dambusters' film there is a black dog called "N-". ! Sounds insane by today's standards but loads of people back then used to call their black dogs "N-", just as they would call a spotted dog "spotty". If it was a genuinely offensive word back then, then no one would use it to name their pet! Think about it. It would be like calling your cat 'wan*er*' now! It just wouldn't happen!

Back then, "N-" was simply a play on the word negro (meaning black), just as the word "spotty" was a play on the word "spotted"

N- didn't begin as a racist word but it became one over time.

Just like the word Gay used to only mean happy but then evolved to mean homosexual.
Listening to old songs, people sing of feeling 'happy and gay' and it sounds hilariously inappropriate by the standard of today's new meaning of the word gay. So if someone recorded a song called " I feel gay " in 1941, it would simply mean " I feel happy ". If they recorded it now in 2013 it would mean to everyone " I feel homosexual "

The N-word years ago didn't have a racist intent behind it, it was just a slang term for negro, just like brit is for british or aussie is for australian. Over time, the N- word came to be used in a negative way by negative people and so now it has become " a racist word " and so it is a word to be avoided.

Aussie and Brit have not become "racist words" but who knows in 30 years time they might be too !

Ron - being of the older generation - is used to the old way of saying N-, which was simply the equivalent of saying Brit for british.

Ron's mistake - i think - is in slipping up and not realising how racist and taboo the N- has become in this day and age. I don't think his use of the N- word came from hatred, but simply came from not keeping up with the times and how words evolve. Of course in a commentary job he should be more mindful of that.

But we should also be more mindful of Ron's generation and understand how different words had different meanings then to now. We should therefore expect the odd slip up from that generation and as long as there is no malicious intent in using it, best just to let it go. It's all about the evolution of words.

Same for swearing - did you know the C- word simply used to mean cut? This is where the name of the county Kent comes from. Literally a "cut in the land" which created the river thames. Kent, Cut and ******* - all from the same root years ago - but look at the difference now.

Maybe we should ban the word Kent. Maybe we should all never talk at all, just to play it safe.

[DanaC]

Don't think that's where Kent comes from. Has a different root I think, meaning 'coastal' iirc.

[CaudleHalbard]

As said earlier in this thread, to describe someone as "black" was considered a generation or two ago to be almost as bad as using the dreaded N word.

This may be because of the word that usually followed it, most commonly "bastard" or similar.

So the context in which a word is commonly used has a huge effect on its acceptability.

[Lewarse]

The guy is 74 ffs - Go speak to your grandparents about racial issues (assuming you are white) - see what they have to say about the matter. Judging people of that generation on what is deemed PC today is a difficult thing to do.

[CaudleHalbard]

Indeed. A 93 year old lady I know wouldnt dream of calling someone "black". She would think it extremely rude.

She is however quite happy to refer to "coloureds" and "darkies"!

In no way is she racist.

[DanaC]

I know what you're saying, but I think even if one were to poll a group of people exclusively over the age of 70 most of them wold know that the N word is no longer acceptable.

My Dad was 73 when he died in 2009. He was never what anybody could call PC. But he knew that the N word was unacceptable.

There seems to be an assumption that people set their vocabulary in stone somewhere around the age of 30 and take absolutely no account of the changing world they're in from that point on.

For someone to use the N word at any time in the last 20 years and not realise it was offensive would require them to have boarded up their eyes and ears.

[Lewarse]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I know what you're saying, but I think even if one were to poll a group of people exclusively over the age of 70 most of them wold know that the N word is no longer acceptable.

My Dad was 73 when he died in 2009. He was never what anybody could call PC. But he knew that the N word was unacceptable.

There seems to be an assumption that people set their vocabulary in stone somewhere around the age of 30 and take absolutely no account of the changing world they're in from that point on.

For someone to use the N word at any time in the last 20 years and not realise it was offensive would require them to have boarded up their eyes and ears.

I think Ron Atikinson knows the N word is unacceptable too, the guy used it in an off the cuff remark without thinking. It doesn't make it right but as others have already said, we all say s**t we don't necessarily mean and live to regret it.

Do you think your Dad didn't ever utter that word or any other racial remarks in his last 20 years of his life? Even though he knew it was unacceptable? Doesn't necessarily mean he hates black people, it was prevalent in that generation. As easy as you make it sound, one of the hardest things to do in life is change.

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by Lewarse

I think Ron Atikinson knows the N word is unacceptable too, the guy used it in an off the cuff remark without thinking. It doesn't make it right but as others have already said, we all say s**t we don't necessarily mean and live to regret it.

Do you think your Dad didn't ever utter that word or any other racial remarks in his last 20 years of his life? Even though he knew it was unacceptable? Doesn't necessarily mean he hates black people, it was prevalent in that generation. As easy as you make it sound, one of the hardest things to do in life is change.

Excellent, thought inspiring post. Well said.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Lewarse

I think Ron Atikinson knows the N word is unacceptable too, the guy used it in an off the cuff remark without thinking. It doesn't make it right but as others have already said, we all say s**t we don't necessarily mean and live to regret it.

Do you think your Dad didn't ever utter that word or any other racial remarks in his last 20 years of his life? Even though he knew it was unacceptable? Doesn't necessarily mean he hates black people, it was prevalent in that generation. As easy as you make it sound, one of the hardest things to do in life is change.

why is it always the dads? My dad has never said a racist word in his life, nor has by grand dad, my mother on the other hand, oh brother

[thesheriff443]

we have all said stupid things, if you say no, you are a liar!
a stupid comment does not make you the devil!

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

we have all said stupid things, if you say no, you are a liar!
a stupid comment does not make you the devil!

Of course we've all said stupid things. And no it doesn't make him the devil.

[erinp5]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlLetRj12PQ

Youtube video

[Lord Of The Garden]

*

Same with words regarding disabilities.

As Alan Partridge pointed out now we have 'Scope' but not long ago it used to be called 'The Spastic Society'. Yet it can be regarded offensive now to use the word 'Spastic'.

I know someone who was sacked from a hotel when trying to explain to another staff member who to give a suitcase to. Their conversation went :

"Can you give this to the guy in the corner please?"
"Which guy?"
"The black guy"

He was sacked for describing someone as black.

Is black an offensive term? I thought with Black history month / MOBO awards etc it was an accepted term. Maybe some people take offence to it. If so, then what do we say?

Perhaps we need a governing body of acceptable language experts featuring someone from every single country/faith/gender/disability etc and they could put a leaflet through everyone's door once a week updating us on what is acceptable and unacceptable language?

If not then we are all at risk of one day being accidentally racist/sexist etc even though we used the exact language that was acceptable only last week.

Or we could all just learn to become less bothered by words, recognise we are all equal and temporary life forms that are born from the same star and laugh at everything as we roll along the river of life

Plus after millions of years of evolution, in the year 2013, it's safe to say that by now, everyone on the planet is mixed race so who gives a s*** !

[Lex]

I said my piece early on in this thread, and said that I would say no more, but have been keeping a lazy eye on the conversations to see which way the land lies with what is,.. and what is not considered racism nowadays!
I personally do not believe that anyone here has the right to brand anyone else that denies being racist...as a racist!..simply because ..you do not know what is in their heart!...I don't know!...no one knows, but the actual person themselves!...I'm not saying that the comment that Ron said about Marcel Desailly was particularly nice!...on the contrary...it was nothing short of stupid ! Apart from the "well known to be lazy in the football community" this could quite possibly be true!...But along with this, Ron's stupidity rang out like a church bell when he added the word ******!!...Which was the icing on the cake that he used to try and emphasise his frustration at Marcel's apparent 'lack of effort'!, ..Which of course was stupidity personified and quite frankly out of character!...And no one is denying that the use of the dreaded word was quite probably hurtful to the player and his family!...and I concede that the whole of the black community were in the right to display moral indignation!..and demand an apology and even his dismissal from his commentary post.
But it is patently wrong for people to try and take the moral high-ground on here [or anywhere really] when they condemn a man that they really know nothing about, and brand them 'A Racist' for a stupid comment that could only be reasonably described as 'an inexplicable aberration'..as is evidenced by Ron's previous history of pushing forward 'talent above race/colour' , thus breaking with the universally accepted practice of applying a kind of unofficial segregation in first class football in this country!

....Yes!...Ron was stupid!...once in his very long career!...and has paid a pretty high price for it!!...but I have to say that as far as i'm concerned that judging by his long history of racial tolerance ...Ron Atkinson is not racist!...just human....Judge him on being a worthy house mate and not a past mistake!


......Oh!...and by the way ..am I considered 'Racist' because ..I call black people black???????? ...why should it be offensive to black people?...If a black person called me a white man....I can't for the life of me think why I should feel offended????

...I would appreciate it, if any of our black members would either post or pm me to let me know... thanks.

Cheers.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Lex

I said my piece early on in this thread, and said that I would say no more, but have been keeping a lazy eye on the conversations to see which way the land lies with what is,.. and what is not considered racism nowadays!
I personally do not believe that anyone here has the right to brand anyone else that denies being racist...as a racist!..simply because ..you do not know what is in their heart!...I don't know!...no one knows, but the actual person themselves!...I'm not saying that the comment that Ron said about Marcel Desailly was particularly nice!...on the contrary...it was nothing short of stupid ! Apart from the "well known to be lazy in the football community" this could quite possibly be true!...But along with this, Ron's stupidity rang out like a church bell when he added the word ******!!...Which was the icing on the cake that he used to try and emphasise his frustration at Marcel's apparent 'lack of effort'!, ..Which of course was stupidity personified and quite frankly out of character!...And no one is denying that the use of the dreaded word was quite probably hurtful to the player and his family!...and I concede that the whole of the black community were in the right to display moral indignation!..and demand an apology and even his dismissal from his commentary post.
But it is patently wrong for people to try and take the moral high-ground on here [or anywhere really] when they condemn a man that they really know nothing about, and brand them 'A Racist' for a stupid comment that could only be reasonably described as 'an inexplicable aberration'..as is evidenced by Ron's previous history of pushing forward 'talent above race/colour' , thus breaking with the universally accepted practice of applying a kind of unofficial segregation in first class football in this country!

....Yes!...Ron was stupid!...once in his very long career!...and has paid a pretty high price for it!!...but I have to say that as far as i'm concerned that judging by his long history of racial tolerance ...Ron Atkinson is not racist!...just human....Judge him on being a worthy house mate and not a past mistake!


......Oh!...and by the way ..am I considered 'Racist' because ..I call black people black???????? ...why should it be offensive to black people?...If a black person called me a white man....I can't for the life of me think why I should feel offended????

...I would appreciate it, if any of our black members would either post or pm me to let me know... thanks.

Cheers.

...Lex I always enjoy reading your posts... your views/opinions are always refreshing and very measured in all of the BB madness each year...this is another great post by you...I don't really know anything in depth about his career but I do know he was very successful because he was a very good manager...I've also been talking to a few members on the forum who have explained a lot of the positive things he's contributed to encouraging black players in the game...I agree with you that people do have the right to moral outrage at what he said because it was so unacceptable, but I do also understand how someone could say something completely out of character if they're feeling extreme frustration at something, which I'm sure he was at the time...anyway that outrage has been expressed, it was 10 years ago, he lost his career because of it so he's paid a high price and had lots of time to reflect on it himself...I don't think he deserves to be defined in any way by that one thing he did/said without also looking at all the positive things he did as well which actually don't just balance it out but seem to be very much more from what I can see...I would like to see him talk about it in the house only because it would be good for him to maybe 'shake it all off' finally..?....


..anyway, you've put it all so much better than me, as always a pleasure to read your post...

[boomoo]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...Lex I always enjoy reading your posts... your views/opinions are always refreshing and very measured in all of the BB madness each year...this is another great post by you...I don't really know anything in depth about his career but I do know he was very successful because he was a very good manager...I've also been talking to a few members on the forum who have explained a lot of the positive things he's contributed to encouraging black players in the game...I agree with you that people do have the right to moral outrage at what he said because it was so unacceptable, but I do also understand how someone could say something completely out of character if they're feeling extreme frustration at something, which I'm sure he was at the time...anyway that outrage has been expressed, it was 10 years ago, he lost his career because of it so he's paid a high price and had lots of time to reflect on it himself...I don't think he deserves to be defined in any way by that one thing he did/said without also looking at all the positive things he did as well which actually don't just balance it out but seem to be very much more from what I can see...I would like to see him talk about it in the house only because it would be good for him to maybe 'shake it all off' finally..?....


..anyway, you've put it all so much better than me, as always a pleasure to read your post...

I agree with you and the post you replied to. But why does Ron have to live through all that again? When he was placed in wife swap with Tessa Sanderson she would not leave the subject alone even though he said over and over he did not want to discuss it. People drew the conclusion from that that he was a racist. If that was true he would not have agreed to the wife swap when he saw Tessa. He was called a racist when he obviously wasnt. His language was completely inappropriate.
When I was a child I had n***** brown shoes and n***** brown polish. At the time I thought that was a colour and only learnt many years later that it had something to do with people.
Carol Mc Givern knew exactly waht she was doing. A very nasty piece of work. I would rather have Ron at my back any day.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by boomoo

I agree with you and the post you replied to. But why does Ron have to live through all that again? When he was placed in wife swap with Tessa Sanderson she would not leave the subject alone even though he said over and over he did not want to discuss it. People drew the conclusion from that that he was a racist. If that was true he would not have agreed to the wife swap when he saw Tessa. He was called a racist when he obviously wasnt. His language was completely inappropriate.
When I was a child I had n***** brown shoes and n***** brown polish. At the time I thought that was a colour and only learnt many years later that it had something to do with people.
Carol Mc Givern knew exactly waht she was doing. A very nasty piece of work. I would rather have Ron at my back any day.

..he doesn't have to 'live through it again' but it is an opportunity for him to talk about it because he did come across as extremely arrogant in Wife Swap after the incident and lots of people including myself found it difficult to understand how someone of his age and supposed intelligence couldn't not realise why what he said was so offensive and yet at that time he seemed to have no regret at all..in the context of what he said it was a lot more than 'inappropriate'..that word had always been used in a 'superior' way, dating back to slavery...anyway as said before, I think he was angry and frustrated when he said it and it didn't denote any racism in him..

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Lex

I said my piece early on in this thread, and said that I would say no more, but have been keeping a lazy eye on the conversations to see which way the land lies with what is,.. and what is not considered racism nowadays!
I personally do not believe that anyone here has the right to brand anyone else that denies being racist...as a racist!..simply because ..you do not know what is in their heart!...I don't know!...no one knows, but the actual person themselves!...I'm not saying that the comment that Ron said about Marcel Desailly was particularly nice!...on the contrary...it was nothing short of stupid ! Apart from the "well known to be lazy in the football community" this could quite possibly be true!...But along with this, Ron's stupidity rang out like a church bell when he added the word ******!!...Which was the icing on the cake that he used to try and emphasise his frustration at Marcel's apparent 'lack of effort'!, ..Which of course was stupidity personified and quite frankly out of character!...And no one is denying that the use of the dreaded word was quite probably hurtful to the player and his family!...and I concede that the whole of the black community were in the right to display moral indignation!..and demand an apology and even his dismissal from his commentary post.
But it is patently wrong for people to try and take the moral high-ground on here [or anywhere really] when they condemn a man that they really know nothing about, and brand them 'A Racist' for a stupid comment that could only be reasonably described as 'an inexplicable aberration'..as is evidenced by Ron's previous history of pushing forward 'talent above race/colour' , thus breaking with the universally accepted practice of applying a kind of unofficial segregation in first class football in this country!

....Yes!...Ron was stupid!...once in his very long career!...and has paid a pretty high price for it!!...but I have to say that as far as i'm concerned that judging by his long history of racial tolerance ...Ron Atkinson is not racist!...just human....Judge him on being a worthy house mate and not a past mistake!


......Oh!...and by the way ..am I considered 'Racist' because ..I call black people black???????? ...why should it be offensive to black people?...If a black person called me a white man....I can't for the life of me think why I should feel offended????

...I would appreciate it, if any of our black members would either post or pm me to let me know... thanks.

Cheers.

A really strong and good post Lex. Fascinating read and I agree with you. Good one.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Lex

I said my piece early on in this thread, and said that I would say no more, but have been keeping a lazy eye on the conversations to see which way the land lies with what is,.. and what is not considered racism nowadays!
I personally do not believe that anyone here has the right to brand anyone else that denies being racist...as a racist!..simply because ..you do not know what is in their heart!...I don't know!...no one knows, but the actual person themselves!...I'm not saying that the comment that Ron said about Marcel Desailly was particularly nice!...on the contrary...it was nothing short of stupid ! Apart from the "well known to be lazy in the football community" this could quite possibly be true!...But along with this, Ron's stupidity rang out like a church bell when he added the word ******!!...Which was the icing on the cake that he used to try and emphasise his frustration at Marcel's apparent 'lack of effort'!, ..Which of course was stupidity personified and quite frankly out of character!...And no one is denying that the use of the dreaded word was quite probably hurtful to the player and his family!...and I concede that the whole of the black community were in the right to display moral indignation!..and demand an apology and even his dismissal from his commentary post.
But it is patently wrong for people to try and take the moral high-ground on here [or anywhere really] when they condemn a man that they really know nothing about, and brand them 'A Racist' for a stupid comment that could only be reasonably described as 'an inexplicable aberration'..as is evidenced by Ron's previous history of pushing forward 'talent above race/colour' , thus breaking with the universally accepted practice of applying a kind of unofficial segregation in first class football in this country!

....Yes!...Ron was stupid!...once in his very long career!...and has paid a pretty high price for it!!...but I have to say that as far as i'm concerned that judging by his long history of racial tolerance ...Ron Atkinson is not racist!...just human....Judge him on being a worthy house mate and not a past mistake!


......Oh!...and by the way ..am I considered 'Racist' because ..I call black people black???????? ...why should it be offensive to black people?...If a black person called me a white man....I can't for the life of me think why I should feel offended????

...I would appreciate it, if any of our black members would either post or pm me to let me know... thanks.

Cheers.

I actually agree with quite a lot of this. Early in the thread I said i considered him a racist based on his use of racist language. I''m not so sure now that I would. A lot of people have put forward good reason for thinking otherwise.

Most of my arguments on this thread are about what people consider to be possible or not possible: that someone did X means he can't be a racist - I disagree with this; or the age factor: I don't agree with a lot of what was said about this being a generational thing - I don't think that word would be considered acceptable by many people his age. language shifts, but that particular word has been considered pretty dodgy for quite a long time; and the fact that it was an 'off the cuff' remark: I think the language we use when we aren't thinking about what we're saying shows the kind of language we are comfortable with and accustomed to. When people say they didn't think the microphone was on, that tells me it is a word they wouldn't use in public, not that it is a word they wouldn't use.

I am willing to accept that having that word in your lexicon, and being part of a culture (football) in which racist terminology is commonplace doesn't make someone a 'racist'.

[chuff me dizzy]

This country is now going overboard with shouting racism ,.and it will never accept racism works both ways