[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Completely agree Jaxie. We should not be expected to tolerate others trying to redefine our identity. We know who we are and do not need to be dictated to by anyone about what we do or do not accept. It isn’t our responsibility to define others or to suffer any negative consequences as a result.

But as women we expected to be treated as equals and men had to be educated to do that so surely as times move on as women we should be more aware of discrimination and try to embrace change. We don't have to change our own definitions but we do need to recognise change in my opinion

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

But as women we expected to be treated as equals and men had to be educated to do that so surely as times move on as women we should be more aware of discrimination and try to embrace change. We don't have to change our own definitions but we do need to recognise change in my opinion

Recognising change is one thing but certain proposals such as self-identified non-transitioned men using ladies bathrooms is stamping over the rights of women on several levels. There are potential problems with that that concern many women and rightly so. This is not really the case for men though.

As far as I am aware Women have never even been asked about their views on this which I find astonishing considering the implications for them. It says a lot about how their views are valued by some including transwomen. It comes across as some seeing their rights as more important. I find the whole thing quite frustrating.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by jaxie

That's a very good post and I agree with some of it. But I will disagree that some of us 'need educating'. As women we've spent a lifetime fighting for just the right to be treated as an equal and it still isn't happening, you've seen the recent news on gender pay issues to name but one. Now along comes another group telling we aren't even women anymore. No. This isn't even an issue about transgender or transsexual people. I don't have any problem with how someone wants/needs to live their life. I have a problem with someone trying to redefine my identity and trying to 'include' someone at my expense.

Nobody has changed your identity. Your identity is the exact same. You were always cisgendered. Your gender and your sex always correlated, unlike bigender, agender, and transgender women. The word woman is a collective term for all groups of women (whether you like that or not), cisgendered is specifically designed to separate you from the other groups when needed.

[jaxie]

Thanks

Originally Posted by Withano

Nobody has changed your identity. Your identity is the exact same. You were always cisgendered. Your gender and your sex always correlated, unlike bigender, agender, and transgender women. The word woman is a collective term for all groups of women (whether you like that or not), cisgendered is specifically designed to separate you from the other groups when needed.

The big difference between us Withano is if you or any other member found a term offensive or didn't like it I would immediately out of politeness stop using it. You on the other hand are delighting in using it. I don't have anything else to say to someone like that.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

To be honest I don't think I have either. She always comes across as very polite in her language on this issue.

I don't think men understand this issue from a women's standpoint at all. But then they are coming from the sex with all the advantages and none of the discrimination.

Yeah I agree and that's not me trying to shut down men from having opinions or whatever more trying to explain why we as woman might feel more nervous about some of the issues to do with transgenders and worry about going backwards when it comes to stereo typing

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Part of the problem on this forum at the moment is there are two distinct types of posters.
These transgender views and topics are a fairly recent issue, one of which some of the older members of the forum are not familiar with, new terminology, cis etc. Younger posters are more used to an all accepting (or more accepting) population. We all need to be more understanding and informed about issues. The problems that a lot of people have is the manner in which more informed members of this forum try to educate. I have many times typed out a question and then not posted because I cant be arsed with the "duh...[insert patronising insulting reply]" from a section of this forum

Like on this page, cherie posted a question, Shaun answered and Marsh answered. Both basically with the same information but one to the point end of the other with barbed patronising language. And you wonder why people bite?

yep totally agree

[Withano]

cisgender
sɪsˈdʒɛndə/Submit
adjective
denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender corresponds with their birth sex.

You sort of dont get to choose if you are or not. Its just a word which does describe some people.

[Marsh.]

Nobody's dictating anything. Our opinions and viewpoint on transgender and how they are identified affects us ALL, not just women.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Nobody's dictating anything. Our opinions and viewpoint on transgender and how they are identified affects us ALL, not just women.

Not to the same degree though. And I believe there are considerably more trans women than trans men. The resulting effects are completely different.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Not to the same degree though. And I believe there are considerably more trans women than trans men. The resulting effects are completely different.

It is men that are becoming trans women.

We have a say and a voice in the discussion. I won't be told I don't by you.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

It is men that are becoming trans women.

We have a say and a voice in the discussion. I won't be told I don't by you.

And I won’t be told by you that this group’s feelings and wishes should get priority over those of non-trans women. Neither will I be accepting the description as a cis woman. Nonsense.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

And I won’t be told by you that this group’s feelings and wishes should get priority over those of non-trans women. Neither will I be accepting the description as a cis woman. Nonsense.

I haven't told anyone that they should get priority.

Read and comprehend what's been written before jumping to conclusions.

[Jamie89]

The trans group includes women whichever way you look at it, like if you don't consider transwomen to be women then you consider transmen to be women, so I don't think it should be something where it's women being pitted against transpeople, I cant see how that helps anybody. Everyone wants the same thing at the end of the day which is rights and inclusion within society and to be treated with respect etc, it shouldn't have to be a case of one vs the other (especially when both groups include each other).

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

The trans group includes women whichever way you look at it, like if you don't consider transwomen to be women then you consider transmen to be women, so I don't think it should be something where it's women being pitted against transpeople, I cant see how that helps anybody. Everyone wants the same thing at the end of the day which is rights and inclusion within society and to be treated with respect etc, it shouldn't have to be a case of one vs the other (especially when both groups include each other).

Not one of us has said that a trans woman shouldn't be included or treated with respect as a trans woman.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Not one of us has said that a trans woman shouldn't be included or treated with respect as a trans woman.

I wasn't meaning that you or anyone else didn't want them to be treated with respect, I was just trying to highlight my view that the things they want are the same things everyone wants (and I used things such as respect as examples). Rather than it needing to be a case of one group competing with another for rights etc. I felt like the rhetoric was turning into a women v trans thing, if someone is supporting of one then they're against the other, I was just trying to put across that I don't see it in that way is all.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I wasn't meaning that you or anyone else didn't want them to be treated with respect, I was just trying to highlight my view that the things they want are the same things everyone wants (and I used things such as respect as examples). Rather than it needing to be a case of one group competing with another for rights etc. I felt like the rhetoric was turning into a women v trans thing, if someone is supporting of one then they're against the other, I was just trying to put across that I don't see it in that way is all.

It's not a v thing until you start to encroach on the identity of one group in a desire to give the other group what you perceive they want. Few of us get everything we want, particularly at the expense of others.

It's great to stand up for something you believe in but not at someone else's expense. You have to learn to listen to others too. If you miss the very strong consensus from women on these threads then you really aren't listening.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by jaxie

It's not a v thing until you start to encroach on the identity of one group in a desire to give the other group what you perceive they want. Few of us get everything we want, particularly at the expense of others.

It's great to stand up for something you believe in but not at someone else's expense. You have to learn to listen to others too. If you miss the very strong consensus from women on these threads then you really aren't listening.

I may disagree with some opinions but that doesn't mean I haven't listened to them. I've engaged a lot with women in these threads so I'm not sure where this is all coming from/what you're trying to say here? And I'm not sure where I've encroached on anyone's identity? If this is regarding the 'cis' conversation I don't know how else I can put across that the use of the word is unrelated to labeling someones gender. It's a gender non-specific term. And I'm not saying that people should get what they want at the expense of others, I'm not sure where that's come from either/what I've said that would suggest otherwise?

[Northern Monkey]

I don’t think (from what i’ve seen) that Niamh and Vicky are transphobic they just disagree with this self identification stuff where any pervy bloke can say they ‘identify’ as a woman to get into womens changing rooms,toilets,prisons and in womens equality roles.Also this idea of a ‘female penis’ and lesbians being transphobic if they won’t sleep with a male with a penis ‘identifying’ as a woman.I agree.
A man wearing a dress is still a male at the end of the day.They should’nt be able to encroach on womens private spaces.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I don’t think (from what i’ve seen) that Niamh and Vicky are transphobic they just disagree with this self identification stuff where any pervy bloke can say they ‘identify’ as a woman to get into womens changing rooms,toilets,prisons and in womens equality roles.Also this idea of a ‘female penis’ and lesbians being transphobic if they won’t sleep with a male with a penis ‘identifying’ as a woman.I agree.
A man wearing a dress is still a male at the end of the day.They should’nt be able to encroach on womens private spaces.

That is how I read their feelings on it as well.

[Marsh.]

I don't think TS' problem was with their viewpoint per se. He says he doesn't believe they're transphobic.

But the language used when they're discussing it wouldn't ordinarily be tolerated if similar was used when discussing another minority group.

[Beso]

Serious question...you know if someone loses a leg they can get that phantom leg syndrom..which i have been told hurts like buggery.Does anyone know if well, you know..phantom boaby syndrome...is it a thing?

[Brillopad]

In today's Metro a group of feminists invaded a men-only swimming session at a pool, used the men's changing rooms and when challenged stated they self identified as males.

They are calling for women to be consulted about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act and they were highlighting the ridiculous and dangerous move towards self-identification. Well done them I say - about time someone did something like this to highlight these issues.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

In today's Metro a group of feminists invaded a men-only swimming session at a pool, used the men's changing rooms and when challenged stated they self identified as males.

They are calling for women to be consulted about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act and they were highlighting the ridiculous and dangerous move towards self-identification. Well done them I say - about time someone did something like this to highlight these issues.

Yes, this is happening every friday apparently. Man Friday. Tempted to buy one of the badges actually, its a fantastic idea and does show up this 'self ID' nonsense for what it is. I kind of know Amy (the one who was in the photoshoots in the press who actually went topless during the mens session) and she has done a lot of interviews about this today and yesterday.

I am considering taking part in the Hampstead Heath one when the weather is warmer. Given the womens pond is now open to 'anyone who identifies as a woman' (despite there being a mixed sex pool anyway) its only fair that the mens is open to anyone who identifies as a man, when entering the pool.

I see this as the only way to stop the madness tbh, women can shout about it til they are blue in the face but until it affects men, nothing will happen.

And this is NOT about actual trans people. Its about Swim Englands ridiculous guidance that states that anyone can identify as either sex and use their areas..and anyone who complains must be 'educated' by the staff, which is clearly bonkers.

[Kizzy]

Fair play I guess... I haven't heard anything about a women self identifying as a man, I wonder if it happens?

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Fair play I guess... I haven't heard anything about a women self identifying as a man, I wonder if it happens?

... of course it happens

[Kizzy]

I haven't heard of any, I was just reading this article it's very interesting

https://theconversation.com/why-self...r-gender-57924