[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Jack_

No it doesn't in the slightest. This is exactly the kind of misconception I was talking about in my first post in this thread.

Some people believe you are born with a sexuality (i.e. nature), others believe your sexuality comes into fruition through socialisation (i.e. nurture). Neither of these possibilities ever implies that it is possible to choose, or indeed change your sexuality. At all.

You do not choose how you are socialised, you are a product of your environment. Therefore you do not choose your sexuality. Nor can you change it. But that doesn't necessarily mean you were born with it.

I honestly don't understand why people often make this correlation between the nurture argument and people saying sexuality is a choice, the two are not related at all the idea that you can choose or change your sexuality is moronic, but the idea that sexuality is socialised and learned behaviour is not, and is a very valid argument

The nurture argument is invalid. Daniel said he was brought up in a, for want of a better word, 'straight' family. He's still gay.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Quasar

The nurture argument is invalid. Daniel said he was brought up in a, for want of a better word, 'straight' family. He's still gay.

The nurture argument isn't suggesting that you have to grow up around gay people to become gay.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I'm not gay so I can't really have an opinion based on anything other than what I hear gay people say and the very big majority believe that they were born gay so I'm happy to take their word for it. Does it really matter that much either way anyhow?

You don't need to be gay to have an opinion on sexuality. Everyone has one

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I'd say that they were bisexual with a massive preference towards the opposite gender or that they repressed their bi/gay side.

Sexuality is not something that can change. No one would choose to be gay or bi if it was a choice, life is harder for anyone who isn't straight.

I completely disagree. It really bothers me when people say things like that. Speak for yourself fine, but not for everyone else. I love being gay, wouldn't change it for anything!

Originally Posted by Daniel_

I hate being gay because most gay guys tend to be ugly

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I'm not saying "develop gay", I'm talking about sexuality in general.

Babies, as far as I'm aware, don't have sexual urges. It's something that develops later. Therefore whatever sexuality they are -straight, gay, bi, whatever- also forms later.

But when then sexual urges come into effect you already know or are confused about what triggers them urges. Most people know what floats their boats and gay people mainly suppress it because of the stigma they believe it holds.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Exactly.

It's like a cold blooded murderer. Doubtful they were born like that but their frame of mind was formed through their upbringing/environment etc.

Not that I'm suggesting a link between psychos and gays.

Indeed.

Humans are for the most part born as blank slates, and all of our personality traits, mannerisms and interests are the product of socialisation. This includes gender and sexuality.

Unless you have some sort of psychological issue then most human traits are learned behaviour as opposed to something you're born with.

[Jamie89]

I think it's the kinsey scale that describes sexuality as being more of a point on a scale rather than something where you're one of 2 or 3 things. I believe this, and that sexuality can be fluid for some people and change over time, even if it's just small changes. Everything about us is complicated and I think sexuality is too, and so it's oversimplified by saying that everyone has to define themselves as gay/straight or bi and then stick with that for life. They're just labels. I've only ever been attracted to men though so I identify as gay but I've known plenty of "straight" and "gay" people who've dabbled. One of my gay friends has sex with women all the time, but that's for different reasons lol.
As to whether or not it's set at birth, I think it is to an extent but then maybe environment can play a part too. I have no idea, except for the fact that it's NOT a choice.

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

The nurture argument isn't suggesting that you have to grow up around gay people to become gay.

Of course it does. That was his personal environment.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Quasar

But when then sexual urges come into effect you already know or are confused about what triggers them urges. Most people know what floats their boats and gay people mainly suppress it because of the stigma they believe it holds.

Yes but have you known from BIRTH? No. It's formed as you've grown up and then you reach sexual maturity and you're aware of what turns you on.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Quasar

Of course it does. That was his personal environment.

It's a hell of a lot more complex than that.

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

What environments would you say could contribute to someone being gay

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Quasar

What environments would you say could contribute to someone being gay

It's not as simple as putting together a formula to say...

If you grow up with a straight mother and father - you'll be straight

If you are brought up by your single mother and a gay uncle - you'll be gay.

It's a hell of a lot more complex than that.

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

It's not as simple as putting together a formula to say...

If you grow up with a straight mother and father - you'll be straight

If you are brought up by your single mother and a gay uncle - you'll be gay.

It's a hell of a lot more complex than that.

Like?

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Quasar

The nurture argument is invalid. Daniel said he was brought up in a, for want of a better word, 'straight' family. He's still gay.

One person's experiences posted on an internet forum does not negate an entire body of research and work into a specific argument

People also commonly assume that the nurture argument is specifically related to your family formation but that isn't just what it's about, it is far more than that. From the second you are born you are injected with norms, values, ideas, belief systems, messages, codes, cultures, environments, the list goes on. The specific elements of what shapes a person are impossible to nail down, but socialisation plays an instrumental role in the development of human beings, from the way we talk, to the things we're interested in, right down to our gender and our sexuality.

None of this is chosen, but these are not ideas you are born with whilst floating in the womb.

[Jamie89]

You're all talking as if you KNOW lol. No one knows or understands the complexities of how sexuality is developed, just like there's so many other things about us and our brains for example that noone understands. The only thing we can be sure about is that it isn't a choice

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Quasar

Like?

I'm not a psychologist. I'm explaining the OPs point of view and how the nurture argument is not as simple as you're making it nor is it suggesting sexuality is a conscious choice.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LiamBB

You don't need to be gay to have an opinion on sexuality. Everyone has one







I completely disagree. It really bothers me when people say things like that. Speak for yourself fine, but not for everyone else. I love being gay, wouldn't change it for anything!

Why is my name coming up for all 3 of those quotes, I only said the first one

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Why is my name coming up for all 3 of those quotes, I only said the first one

That's odd? It's appearing as it should on mine. Refresh your screen?

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Jack_

One person's experiences posted on an internet forum does not negate an entire body of research and work into a specific argument

People also commonly assume that the nurture argument is specifically related to your family formation but that isn't just what it's about, it is far more than that. From the second you are born you are injected with norms, values, ideas, belief systems, messages, codes, cultures, environments, the list goes on. The specific elements of what shapes a person are impossible to nail down, but socialisation plays an instrumental role in the development of human beings, from the way we talk, to the things we're interested in, right down to our gender and our sexuality.

None of this is chosen, but these are not ideas you are born with whilst floating in the womb.

There are parents out there that drill so much crap into children's heads for example, how being gay is wrong. I've had that from my own father. I've been brought up by my father to think that being gay is disgusting etc and I actually did believe it at one point. But that didn't stop me being gay nor did it make me straight.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Quasar

There are parents out there that drill so much crap into children's heads for example, how being gay is wrong. I've had that from my own father. I've been brought up by my father to think that being gay is disgusting etc and I actually did believe it at one point. But that didn't stop me being gay nor did it make me straight.

Again, you are trying to nail the nurture argument down to specific elements which is not what it is about at all. As Marsh said, it is far more complex than that, and it is. Socialisation is not a process that can be dissected and analysed, it just ~is~. Your very being is the product of it.

And actually, if anything, I'd argue that usually being told something is bad has the opposite effect, especially on children a bit like 'wet paint - do not touch' signs or kids that have emerged from strictly religious families and go off the rails when they get a bit of freedom. Note, I'm not actually saying what your dad said had any effect because as I said before, it's not specific things like that that the nurture argument is about

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Again, you are trying to nail the nurture argument down to specific elements which is not what it is about at all. As Marsh said, it is far more complex than that, and it is. Socialisation is not a process that can be dissected and analysed, it just ~is~. Your very being is the product of it.

And actually, if anything, I'd argue that usually being told something is bad has the opposite effect, especially on children a bit like 'wet paint - do not touch' signs or kids that have emerged from strictly religious families and go off the rails when they get a bit of freedom. Note, I'm not actually saying what your dad said had any effect because as I said before, it's not specific things like that that the nurture argument is about

So the nuture argument is just as concise as religion then?

[Daniel.]

It's nature, I don't believe it's nurture for a minute

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Quasar

So the nuture argument is just as concise as religion then?

I don't even get what this post is supposed to mean...

Is it a dig at religion? Always down for that...

[Glenn.]

I don't like the idea of being told 'you're gay because of this' or 'oh that's why you're gay' it's a crock of ****. I'm gay because I'm gay, that's the way is. I can't change that.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Quasar

I don't like the idea of being told 'you're gay because of this' or 'oh that's why you're gay' it's a crock of ****. I'm gay because I'm gay, that's the way is. I can't change that.

Nobody's saying you can change it though. :cons:

You're still assuming this is all to do with influencing a person to make a conscious decision. It isn't.

Do you honestly think you'd be the exact same person you are today if you were brought up by another family? In another culture? Another country? etc etc

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Jack_

I don't even get what this post is supposed to mean...

Is it a dig at religion? Always down for that...

Not so much a dig at religion. I meant by the way that it's just an unanswerable question and people just follow it.