[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Third options are perfectly reasonable compromises too, and quite frankly I'd prefer it if we ditched big open changing rooms for men and women at swimming pools and stuck with individual cubicles for everyone like some have, and do the same thing in toilets

The only reason unisex only toilets are preferable is because it's cheaper and it goes some way to diminishing the power of the gender binary and breaking down all these pointless labels

Well yes, this is an option I have never really thought of tbh. Thinking of it, whats the need for the huge open changing rooms anyway...

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well yes, this is an option I have never really thought of tbh. Thinking of it, whats the need for the huge open changing rooms anyway...

I assume cost but they're just awful, and Michael McIntyre pretty much sums up everything that's wrong with them:

[arista]

"Re: urinals, ditch the vile things anyway with the awful ~social rules~ that come along with them "


No Jack
we can not afford to go Fancy
Times are hard
Me , LT and TS
all know this.


Feel The Force

[Vicky.]

Also again on this TERF issue..of course they 'exclude trans women' and I can honestly see why. Feminists have fought for years and years to have equal rights to men. They are there (or very nearly there). Can you imagine how it feels to then be expected to put the needs/wants of a man ABOVE your own rights? I am speaking purely from the 'trapped in a mans body' perspective of this, NOT those who have fully transitioned. To include people who simply say they identify as women is effectively saying **** the rights we fought for, men still rule all and have the final say...we were oppressed for thousands of years, but now a guy can simply claim he is the most oppressed of the oppressed and everyone must forget everything else and yield to this. Its not right. Womens rights could therefor be broken down systematically by a few blokes on a power trip who have an 'easy out' for want of better words. Yes these people are a minority, but a very dangerous minority and a very loud minority and I am not sure I agree with making this easier for them. Same as the lesbian issue I guess...those who think they have the right to bully lesbians into ****ing them by labeling them transphobic if they don't and saying they should be beaten up and such..are a minority but at the moment, they have a very real way to exert their power and basically say 'hail my almighty penis' :S

--------------------------------------

Also adding onto this post, though has no relevance to the above part of my post, adding simply so I don't spam the thread...I have read many things about trans people, but this seems to be the prevalent thought process on the 'living as a woman' issue I asked of earlier

http://bilerico.lgbtqnation.com/2011...y_girlhood.php

Its all very very sad to read, but this part

I wanted to be a girl. I never vocalized this. I overcompensated a bit, to be truthful. My parents probably would've handled it well, but I never gave them the chance. I didn't have the courage or self-awareness to speak up. I wasn't aware of the future consequences of this decision. I didn't even know I had made a decision. I knew my feelings were incorrect and that's all there was to it.

I want it back. I want my Barbies. I want my ballerina phase. I want the bedroom that's pink and purple everywhere with a canopy bed. I want tea parties with my dad. I want slumber parties and unsuccessful experiments with make-up with my friends.

Is NOT living as a girl. It is, however how (dare I say) the majority of trans people view things. So yet again, social issues, nothing else. Treat the cause, not the illness. Hypothetically of course..

[user104658]

Going to be quick and straight to the point here I'm afraid Vicky:

Your entire argument from the very start of your first post describes the difference between "sex" and "gender". This is accurate. However what you then go on to do is attempt to entirely remove the entire concept of gender from the equation completely by pretending that - as it is not biologically hard wired - it therefore does not exist.

This is fundamentally flawed thinking.

Yes, the concept of gender is a social construct, but it a very REAL and still current social construct in the world we live in. You simply can't take it out of the equation. It's incorrect psychology; anything and everything you say after that is then flawed or incorrect because you are hinging your entire philosophy on the still-false premise that males and females are not still socially distinguishable.

You argue that IF infants were taken and raised in a gender-neutral environment, these issues would cease to exist. That's a valid hypothesis and may well be right but... it's completely irrelevant to a real-world discussion of gender identity.


Beyond that, I would actually agree that there are probably many individuals living as transgendered who do indeed more accurately have generalised identity disorders, often triggered by trauma. However that's a different discussion, really. The existence of those individuals doesn't make it valid to "throw the baby out with the bath water", so to speak, and deny the existence of literal biologically trans-sexed people. When you then put those people into the REAL world in which gender identities DO exist, rather than your hypothetical non-existent ideal world devoid of such roles, it's easy to see why there would be distress based around being in the "wrong body" and associated expectations.

[user104658]

OK, it wasn't that quick.

[Vicky.]

I wasn't trying to deny that gender roles/stereotypes and such play a huge part in everyones lives though, the 'gender neutral' stuff was me trying to write out my thoughts as I thought them..which may well have come across really wrong. And basically, I have come to the realization that society, as a whole has actually created 'trans' issues in most cases..which is sad and could be changed. Not immediately granted, but long term, and would be much more useful than writing a 'feminine' man off as a trans woman and then going onto attempting to redefine the word woman to fit this. I have flip flopped so much in views on this subject over the past week or so that I feel slightly like a hypothetical dying carp. And I have realised the reason for this feeling, for the lack of understanding surrounding these issues..is that we aren't allowed to have conversations about it without being written off as phobic, which is really wrong.

I also think that 'people who identify' and 'trans' are entirely different, and I will never fully accept someone who simply thinks they are a woman in their head, as a woman. Where I would accept a trans woman who has transitioned as a woman...this view is thought to be totally unacceptable. I understand that to transition there are dangerous surgeries and such and I don't wish to make people feel they HAVE to go through stuff like this, but I just cannot get over the fact that with the whole 'identify' thing..literally anyone can say they are anything they wish to, either for genuine reasons, or for another agenda (such as blokes on a power trip having an easy 'out' and getting a kick out of eroding womens rights /feminist)

[user104658]

You can get quite sweeping there though, as sadly it is "society" that has created almost EVERY human issue, but some aspects of society are so ingrained that it would most likely be futile to try to rewrite them. I'm also not personally convinced that a "gender neutral" world is something that we SHOULD strive for; I am completely in favour of gender equality but, to me anyway, gender uniformity sounds pretty... Grey?

I would be very skeptical of anyone who insists that they be considered "female" whilst still being entirely masculine... But like I said, you can separate the bull**** and the abnormal psychology from the legitimate individuals without having to tear everything down and start over.


From my own personal viewpoint it's all quite academic, to be fair. I'm a huge believer in individuality and I don't like categories of any kind as a rule. I wouldn't say I feel particularly masculine, nor feminine. I'm male, 6'2, well built and as far as I can tell entirely straight (I've only ever been sexually attracted to females) and I'm entirely happy with my body; though I also don't feel like I'd be unhappy in a female body.

I can handle myself, but I've never been aggressive. I'm not into sports of any kind as some would argue "most" males are.

I like "girly TV" like Gossip Girl .

I generally prefer female company... Though my two best friends are male. One is gay and pretty camp, the other is straight and probably even more camp.

To be honest I sort of think of myself as an individual as being entirely unrelated to the body that I happen to move around the world in. What sexually / gender is that? Hmmmm. Just a TS I suppose .

[Vicky.]

See I did see it as being progressive until recently, but now,,I see it as a huge step backwards for womens rights, and downright dangerous to actual real life trans people as to force people into something they don't believe in, will incite hatred, hatred that may not ever be there if not for the 'trans-movement' as it stands today..

OK, Helen is one of the people I have spoken to over the past few days who has helped me shape my views. They have given me permission to copy/paste one of their posts about the matter, and suggested a blog post may be helpful in trying to explain my views about the trans-activists arguments being detrimental to actual transpeople.

http://transavant.tumblr.com/post/14.../whats-my-deal
The blog is well worth a read and actually quite upset me. It must be horrific to be rejected by society because of who you are, whilst equally abused by the very people who claim to represent you, simply for failing to 'fall into line' with the current TA views...

Ok my thoughts on calling transwomen men for what it's worth, Obviously these are just my personal thoughts - not everyone will agree and that's cool.

This is complicated so apologies in advance if this goes a bit rambly.

My way of thinking about it is that humans like all mammals are sexually domorphic. That's biology 101 right? Sure there are a tiny percentage of people that are intersex, but bringing that up is just appropriation and is disingenuous. Most (all?) transwomen are male. Penis, sperm, prostate etc.

Now that 'should' be undisputable. Some TA's do and frankly I put them in the same camp as flat earthers.

Where it gets a bit trickier for me is how we define 'man' and 'woman'. The dictionary is usually a pretty good place to start. According to The Oxford English Dictionary:

man
noun
Adult human male.

So according to the dictionary definition I'm a man. In fact all transwomen are men. I've heard people say that it's a morally neutral statement. It's not a judgement statement or meant to be derisory. It's just a statement of fact.

So why do we get so upset at being called men?

I think it's because man means so much more than just adult human male. It has so much social connotation.

connotation
noun
An idea or feeling which a word invokes for a person in addition to its literal or primary meaning.

'Man' invokes all of the thoughts and feelings we have about men in the social context of our society. I can't say that this is the same for all transwomen (and certainly not for transactivists), but to me man means sexist, misogynyst, thoughtless, violent. I have very negative connotations with the word man. I guess to me I just associate the word man with tocxic masculinity.

I once heard a transwoman say "I don't know what I am but whatever it is I'm definitely not a man". Nobody said anything at the time but I know now that pretty much everbody's silent reaction was to think "Who are you kidding? You are clearly a man."

And they are a man. An adult human male. But they desperately didn't want to be lumped under that word which means so much more than adult human male.

I think I've worked beyond this now and I no longer get upset by being called a man or 'he' but I understand why others do. I also don't lay any claim to womanhood or to be called she or her. Some people do call me those things and that's cool. Some people don't and that's also cool.

There is another dynamic that we need to be honest about though. The transgender umbrella has been getting bigger and bigger and men (and I use that word intentionally) who are some of the most vile misogynists I've had the misfortune to encounter claim womanhood, and 'she' and 'her' and have devleloped this culture of entitlement (male entitlement?) and victimhood.

These TRA's harm transexuals so much with their bull****.

I know that this is a bit #notallmen but I thought it worth trying to explain something from the pint of view of someone who is trans.

Sorry again that was a ramble.

I understand that this is ONE opinion. But this person, along with Miranda and a bunch of other posters..have been part of what has made me question my previous views on this and I do find it useful to have the opinions of someone who is actually in the firing line each and everytime a TA claims to speak for transexuals.

I am also speaking about this on a more private forum with a MtF transexual who prefers to be known as she as she sees herself as female despite being born male. But also completely distances herself from the views of the most prominent TAs who claim the need to totally redefine the world as we know it, rather than fighting for acceptance for themselves..and thinks that the current way the trans-movement is going is 'bizarre, scary and damaging to women and transwomen alike'