[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Anybody know where I can hire a trans person to attack Cherie?

Well the biggest problem is that one day a man says I want to be a trans man.

So he must be a pervert after a chance to get her into a hospital bed

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Well the biggest problem is that one day a man says I want to be a trans man.

So he must be a pervert after a chance to get her into a hospital bed

I'm waiting for you to pull up that post you claim I have written

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Well the biggest problem is that one day a man says I want to be a trans man.

So he must be a pervert after a chance to get her into a hospital bed

a man saying he wants to be a trans man would be uncommon I'd imagine

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Anybody know where I can hire a trans person to attack Cherie?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Livia

Worth a read... and I feel like the author has been nowhere near Mumsnet.

Trans rights will be durable only if campaigners respect women's concerns.
Women opposed to the trans agenda are informed by their experience of misogyny, not by bigotry, writes Kristina Harrison, a political campaigner

https://www.economist.com/open-futur...omens-concerns

posting this again for those who can't read back

[Withano]

...still you...

[Cherie]

Anyway back to the point, has anyone bothered to read the article Livia posted?

[Niamh.]

Ok stop bickering and get back on topic

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Ok stop bickering and get back on topic

Yes Miss

[ethanjames]

have it saved ill read it in a bit!

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by ethanjames

have it saved ill read it in a bit!

[Withano]

Stopped reading the article pretty early because of the context of this thread

The argument in this thread is that a rapist might think to themselves one day ‘oh how I want to sexaully assault somebody but how will i ever... unless, i pretend to identify as a woman, and I pretend to be sick, i get myself into an all womans ward and bingo. Nobody will even check on me and my victims for weeks probably, its not like they have busy 24 hour staff and a wide open door’.... instead of the same bloke realising he could assault a woman in minutes if he wanted to, there are several private places without cameras in any town right now and you wouldnt have to sign in with your nhs number to get there

The argument is stupid

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Stopped reading the article pretty early because of the context of this thread

The argument in this thread is that a rapist might think to themselves one day ‘oh how I want to sexaully assault somebody but how will i ever... unless, i pretend to identify as a woman, and I pretend to be sick, i get myself into an all womans ward and bingo. Nobody will even check on me and my victims for weeks probably, its not like they have busy 24 hour staff and a wide open door’.... instead of the same bloke realising he could assault a woman in minutes if he wanted to, there are several private places without cameras in any town right now and you wouldnt have to sign in with your nhs number to get there

The argument is stupid

For me it's the broader issue of Self IDing, if it's allowed in some cases is it allowed in all?

*again who said people will be attacked in hospitals?

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

For me it's the broader issue of Self IDing, if it's allowed in some cases is it allowed in all?

*again who said people will be attacked in hospitals?

Off the top of my head, Livia.

What exactly is the issue with Self-IDing for you Niamh? If we were to allow it for every case in every place, what would your issue with that be?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Off the top of my head, Livia.

What exactly is the issue with Self-IDing for you Niamh? If we were to allow it for every case in every place, what would your issue with that be?

Well mainly prisons really, also in sports

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well mainly prisons really, also in sports

Prisons I personally think the issue is more to do with the individual than a generalisation. If its a violent offender, all sort of considerations should be made when assessing the best place for them, and if that's done properly then there really should be very little chance of a violent male ending up in with female prisoners.

Sports is sort of a different debate really... It's less about universal rights and being born male does present a significant physical advantage in many sports. Honestly I would say that any fair-minded transfemale would be mindful of that and avoid the sport even if they're good at it, and consider that part of the "deal" for lack of a better word.

I think it's in Spider-man where he says that he would love to play a sport at school but used to be small and weak, and after getting powerz would obviously dominate, "but he couldn't before, so he shouldn't now". Which seems fair.

Not like Tom Welling's Clark Kent who played high school football and pretended like he wasnt at an advantage because he deliberately slowed down . BAD Tom.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

For me it's the broader issue of Self IDing, if it's allowed in some cases is it allowed in all?



*again who said people will be attacked in hospitals?

If people won't be attacked then what is the issue? It can only be irrational fear (which is, literally by definition, phobia) and while yes irratiinal fears can still have a very real impact on people and shouldn't necessarily be dismissed, the aim should be to address those fears productively, and not say "Well quite right, we'll keep those strange folks away!" for the sake of comfort. How does society ever progress that way?

There are a lot of elderly people who are LEGITIMATELY afraid of black people... As in terrified. Because of how they were raised and things they've been indoctrinated to believe. Do we keep black people out of their wards to alleviate their fear? Their fear is very real, despite being unfounded and prejudiced. Do we stop black staff members from working with them? They would be much more comfortable if we did. But these things would (rightly) be seen as morally abhorrent. Why is it so different with trans issues? All I can ever come back to is the thought that people arguing so strongly against it must have some personal distaste for it, and a lot of it manifests as angry misandry, which is for some reason acceptable.

I mean jesus christ... Imagine the backlash if men were proudly declaring "NO VAGINAS IN MEN-ONLY SPACES!". It would go down like a lead balloon, and for good reason. Its a wildly offensive way to phrase what might otherwise be an opinion with some validity... Reducing people to their genitalia. What is that?


Also the issue of Self -ID is a complicated one in itself. What is the alternative to self ID? A person's thoughts and feelings on their identity is irrelevant unless it's confirmed by a doctor or psychologist? Mental health professionals (who, unfortunately, frequently get things horribly wrong) get the final say on what an individual is or isn't? I don't think that's a particularly attractive path, either.

The REAL scenario is that the vast majority of self-identified transsexuals Will be dressing as and living as the gender they are claiming. The idea that blokes are going around looking and acting like blokes whilst self identifying as women on any sort of regular basis is just complete fantasy. Does it happen? Maybe, very, very rarely but we don't live our lives based on what is very rare and unusual. We don't keep kids locked in the house because of the very rare occasions when they go missing. We don't ban cars based on the not-even-that-unusual chance of a crash. We calculate risk sensibly and take all sort of risks, individually and as a society, on a daily basis. The risk of allowing Self ID in hospitals is utterly miniscule, and the aim should be to help people understand that to alleviate their fears, not to validate those fears by telling people "Well yeah a covert predator in a wig really might getcha".

I don't tell my daughter that a masked man might run out of the woods and grab her when she's at the park with her friends. I don't keep her locked indoors. It happens! Horrifically, it COULD happen! But realistically, she isn't at any risk worth worrying about whilst playing hide and seek with her friends.

[ethanjames]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

If people won't be attacked then what is the issue? It can only be irrational fear (which is, literally by definition, phobia) and while yes irratiinal fears can still have a very real impact on people and shouldn't necessarily be dismissed, the aim should be to address those fears productively, and not say "Well quite right, we'll keep those strange folks away!" for the sake of comfort. How does society ever progress that way?

There are a lot of elderly people who are LEGITIMATELY afraid of black people... As in terrified. Because of how they were raised and things they've been indoctrinated to believe. Do we keep black people out of their wards to alleviate their fear? Their fear is very real, despite being unfounded and prejudiced. Do we stop black staff members from working with them? They would be much more comfortable if we did. But these things would (rightly) be seen as morally abhorrent. Why is it so different with trans issues? All I can ever come back to is the thought that people arguing so strongly against it must have some personal distaste for it, and a lot of it manifests as angry misandry, which is for some reason acceptable.

I mean jesus christ... Imagine the backlash if men were proudly declaring "NO VAGINAS IN MEN-ONLY SPACES!". It would go down like a lead balloon, and for good reason. Its a wildly offensive way to phrase what might otherwise be an opinion with some validity... Reducing people to their genitalia. What is that?


Also the issue of Self -ID is a complicated one in itself. What is the alternative to self ID? A person's thoughts and feelings on their identity is irrelevant unless it's confirmed by a doctor or psychologist? Mental health professionals (who, unfortunately, frequently get things horribly wrong) get the final say on what an individual is or isn't? I don't think that's a particularly attractive path, either.

The REAL scenario is that the vast majority of self-identified transsexuals Will be dressing as and living as the gender they are claiming. The idea that blokes are going around looking and acting like blokes whilst self identifying as women on any sort of regular basis is just complete fantasy. Does it happen? Maybe, very, very rarely but we don't live our lives based on what is very rare and unusual. We don't keep kids locked in the house because of the very rare occasions when they go missing. We don't ban cars based on the not-even-that-unusual chance of a crash. We calculate risk sensibly and take all sort of risks, individually and as a society, on a daily basis. The risk of allowing Self ID in hospitals is utterly miniscule, and the aim should be to help people understand that to alleviate their fears, not to validate those fears by telling people "Well yeah a covert predator in a wig really might getcha".

I don't tell my daughter that a masked man might run out of the woods and grab her when she's at the park with her friends. I don't keep her locked indoors. It happens! Horrifically, it COULD happen! But realistically, she isn't at any risk worth worrying about whilst playing hide and seek with her friends.

good post ts!

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

If people won't be attacked then what is the issue? It can only be irrational fear (which is, literally by definition, phobia) and while yes irratiinal fears can still have a very real impact on people and shouldn't necessarily be dismissed, the aim should be to address those fears productively, and not say "Well quite right, we'll keep those strange folks away!" for the sake of comfort. How does society ever progress that way?


There are a lot of elderly people who are LEGITIMATELY afraid of black people... As in terrified. Because of how they were raised and things they've been indoctrinated to believe. Do we keep black people out of their wards to alleviate their fear? Their fear is very real, despite being unfounded and prejudiced. Do we stop black staff members from working with them? They would be much more comfortable if we did. But these things would (rightly) be seen as morally abhorrent. Why is it so different with trans issues? All I can ever come back to is the thought that people arguing so strongly against it must have some personal distaste for it, and a lot of it manifests as angry misandry, which is for some reason acceptable.

Again, I've already said I don't really have an issues with hospital wards.

I mean jesus christ... Imagine the backlash if men were proudly declaring "NO VAGINAS IN MEN-ONLY SPACES!". It would go down like a lead balloon, and for good reason. Its a wildly offensive way to phrase what might otherwise be an opinion with some validity... Reducing people to their genitalia. What is that?

I never said anything like that

Also the issue of Self -ID is a complicated one in itself. What is the alternative to self ID? A person's thoughts and feelings on their identity is irrelevant unless it's confirmed by a doctor or psychologist? Mental health professionals (who, unfortunately, frequently get things horribly wrong) get the final say on what an individual is or isn't? I don't think that's a particularly attractive path, either.



The REAL scenario is that the vast majority of self-identified transsexuals Will be dressing as and living as the gender they are claiming. The idea that blokes are going around looking and acting like blokes whilst self identifying as women on any sort of regular basis is just complete fantasy. Does it happen? Maybe, very, very rarely but we don't live our lives based on what is very rare and unusual. We don't keep kids locked in the house because of the very rare occasions when they go missing. We don't ban cars based on the not-even-that-unusual chance of a crash. We calculate risk sensibly and take all sort of risks, individually and as a society, on a daily basis. The risk of allowing Self ID in hospitals is utterly miniscule, and the aim should be to help people understand that to alleviate their fears, not to validate those fears by telling people "Well yeah a covert predator in a wig really might getcha".

Honestly I don't care how people choose to live, it only becomes an issue when places or things that are sex segregated (for good reason ie Biological reasons) are encroached upon like Prisons and Sports, there's been a fair few cases arising where trans woman have been entering womens sports and the biological advantages are very evident, it's pretty unfair for a start and also dangerous when it comes to some sports like UFC.

I don't tell my daughter that a masked man might run out of the woods and grab her when she's at the park with her friends. I don't keep her locked indoors. It happens! Horrifically, it COULD happen! But realistically, she isn't at any risk worth worrying about whilst playing hide and seek with her friends.

I do! Maybe not specifically a masked man but yeah, I've warned my kids about scenarios like those happening? I thought most parents did tbh?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I never said anything like that

It wasn't directed at you, but at the "no penises in female only spaces" comment that Livia has made five or six times in this thread alone.

I do! Maybe not specifically a masked man but yeah, I've warned my kids about scenarios like those happening? I thought most parents did tbh?

She knows that bad things happen to people and what to do if it does happen but the point is she knows it is still very UNlikely and so doesn't actively worry about being snatched every time she's out on her own. And we don't base the rules on whether or not she can or can't do things on the slim possibility of something happening to her. No one can live like that, and that's how it works on a societal scale, too... every day, people board planes with their families knowing that planes DO crash, but understanding that the chance of ours crashing is tiny. Thus, logically, there's simply no reason to exclude transwomen (whether they have a "diagnosis" or not) from being in female wards based solely on the tiny possibility of one of them committing assault, and even LESS because of the small possibility that "some people might feel uncomfortable or frightened". Honestly exactly the same logic was applied when certain places in the US stopped relegating black people to the back of the bus; that it shouldn't happen "because people would be scared and intimidated" - especially women and the elderly - because of their false beliefs about ethnic minorities. I firmly believe that if we start basing decisions like this on "what everyone is comfortable with", NO progression could ever occur in any area.

That said, none of it is a reason to abandon common sense and individual use of judgement. If someone's behaviour is concerning or there's reason to believe that their motivations are suspect (such as a large burly man with a beard loudly insisting he's female) then of course they should expect some questions to be asked, but I just can't see that scenario actually happening often enough to be considered anything other than an anomaly... with the vast majority of self-IDing transexuals quite obviously having traits of their chosen gender.

[Withano]

Also the same people seem very fine with mixed sexes wards, as in say 5 men and 5 women, but **** off will we have 9 women and 1 transwoman!

Something tells me nobody was really ever talking about the article.

[Cherie]

Not interested in the thread, knows everyone views, but comes in to ensure the label bigot gets an airing …..now who is predictable.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Not interested in the thread, knows everyone views, but comes in to ensure the label bigot gets an airing …..now who is predictable.

Just took a quick glance over your 74 posts (more than double anybody else) not one seemed productive, its just arguments and baits. Look closer inward maybe.

[user104658]

The article (and a sound argument) is that things are going to be difficult for transwomen if they don't work alongside women to alleviate women's irrational fears about what will happen to them / their rights if they accept trans.

The argument on this thread is that those fears are not irrational, but realistic.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The article (and a sound argument) is that things are going to be difficult for transwomen if they don't work alongside women to alleviate women's irrational fears about what will happen to them / their rights if they accept trans.

The argument on this thread is that those fears are not irrational, but realistic.

crazy hysterical women eh?