[bots]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

oh

looks like the the darling of the left The Mirror are at it as well

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...block-10620310

and the metro

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/what-c...fault-6707170/

and ITV

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-06-14/f...e-investigate/

etc

doesn't make it decent behaviour just because a few want a blinking lynch mob

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

doesn't make it descent behaviour just because a few want a blinking lynch mob

they are just reporting what people want to know

[bots]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

they are just reporting what people want to know

that's just not true, and you know it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

that's just not true, and you know it.

Are you saying people dont want to know how and why the fire started?

[King Gizzard]

None of those have plastered a big picture of him stating his name and questioning his motives. Nice try though.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Nathan

None of those have plastered a big picture of him stating his name and questioning his motives. Nice try though.

the mail always do imagery better, hence they are number 1

[Cherie]

They don't need any more donations of food and clothes, London

Edit: for now as they are overwhelmed

[Jack_]

Youtube video

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Youtube video

Makes the ending to that letter that was sent to the council rather more sinister than i thought it was when i read it.

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Youtube video

Hmmmm, better than the idiotic woman this morning finding a platform for her hate.
Revenge for the London Bridge attack according to her.
The fire brigade took 4 and a half hours to attend..according to her.
There was only very few police attending..according to her.
She insisted she spoke last out of the three interviewed as her anger was "different".
She was asked to hang on for a moment after the interview and couldn't scurry off quick enough.
She didn't know anybody in the flats so her anger wasn't emotional.
Bloody head case, stuff like this can cause so much anger and hate amongst people.

[JTM45]

'The Sun' really is a vile, disgusting rag.
'News' paper............my arse!!!!

[Jack_]

Sorry but the 'don't politicise this' cries are complete bull****, and here's why:

Tories reject move to ensure rented homes fit for human habitation

Labour amendment to housing bill, aimed at holding landlords to account, is defeated as minister claims it would push up rents

Conservative MPs have voted against proposed new rules requiring private sector landlords to ensure their properties are fit for human habitation.

A Labour amendment to the government’s housing and planning bill, designed to ensure that all rented accommodation was safe for people to live in, was defeated by 312 votes to 219 on Tuesday, a majority of 93.

“The majority of landlords let property which is and remains in a decent standard. Many landlords go out of their way to ensure that even the slightest safety hazard is sorted quickly and efficiently,” said the shadow housing minister, Teresa Pearce, who proposed the amendment.

“So it is even more distressing when we see reports of homes which are frankly unfit for human habitation being let, often at obscene prices.”

Pearce said that the condition of some rented accommodation would not be tolerated in other sectors, citing reports of mouldy walls in privately rented properties.

“Where else in modern day life could someone get away with this? It’s a consumer issue. If I purchased a mobile phone or a computer that didn’t work, didn’t do what it said it would or was unsafe I would take it back and get a refund,” she said.

“If I purchased food from a shop and it was unsafe to eat I would not only get a refund but there is a high possibility the shopkeeper could be prosecuted. Yet if I rent from a landlord, perhaps the only available property for me, and it was unsafe to live in then I can either put up or shut up. In a market where demand outstrips supply renters lack basic consumer power to bargain for better conditions.”

The government has been heavily criticised for attempting to rush its controversial housing bill through parliament, last month quietly tabling an amendment to the bill that set a maximum of five-year terms for new council tenancies.

The bill will offer discounts of up to Ł102,700 in London and Ł77,000 in the rest of England to people renting from housing associations who want to buy their homes. The policy will be partly funded by requiring councils to sell the top third of their most valuable council homes from their remaining stock.

The local government minister, Marcus Jones, said Pearce’s proposal would result in “unnecessary regulation and cost to landlords” that would deter further investment and push up rents for tenants.

He said: “Of course we believe that all homes should be of a decent standard and all tenants should have a safe place to live regardless of tenure, but local authorities already have strong and effective powers to deal with poor quality and safe accommodation and we expect them to use them.”

The Guardian

Grenfell Tower: Tory minister declined to include sprinklers in fire safety rules as it could discourage house building

'We believe that it is the responsibility of the fire industry, rather than the Government'

The former Conservative housing minister warned against increasing fire safety regulations to include sprinklers because it could discourage house building.

As the death toll from the Grenfell Tower blaze rose to 12, it emerged Brandon Lewis, who was recently promoted to immigration minister, declined in 2014 to force building developers to fit sprinklers.

A sprinkler system would have "undoubtedly" saved lives at the Grenfell Tower blaze, the managing director of the Fire Protection Association told The Independent.

"Whether they'd have stopped that fire spreading at the speed it did up the outside of that building is another matter," Jon O'Neill said.

"But to have had sprinklers in that building would have created an environment where it would have been easier to rescue people and increase survivability."

Mr Lewis declined to bring in regulation forcing developers to fit sprinklers because he said it was not the Government's responsibility.

He told MPs: “We believe that it is the responsibility of the fire industry, rather than the Government, to market fire sprinkler systems effectively and to encourage their wider installation.”

He said the Tory Government had committed to being the first to reduce regulations nationwide.

He added: “The cost of fitting a fire sprinkler system may affect house building – something we want to encourage – so we must wait to see what impact that regulation has.”

Earlier in the Westminster Hall debate to mark Fire Sprinklers Week, he had admitted: "Sprinklers work. We know that. No one can deny it.

"They are an effective way of controlling fires and of protecting lives and property."

Paul Fuller, chief fire officer for Bedfordshire and chairman of the Fire Sector Federation, said sprinklers could have helped.

He told BBC Radio 4's World At One: "We know that sprinklers are effective. Also, sprinklers will make the environment more survivable by containing the fire and containing the smoke.

"But they are not a total solution. We also have to make sure that passive protection measures - things like the structure of the building and the fire resistance of the building - are all properly in place as well."

He added that the federation has been calling for a review of part B of the building regulations "for a number of years now" to ensure they "meet the needs of a modern society using modern methods of construction and who use buildings differently from the way we used to 30 or 40 years ago".

In 2013 the All-Party Parliamentary Fire Safety & Rescue Group called for a review of safety regulation after six people died and more than 20 were hurt in a 2009 blaze at Lakanal House in Camberwell.

A government spokesman said that following the Lakanal House fire, the coroner recommended the guidance relating to fire safety within the building regulations be simplified, work he said is ongoing.

The coroner also asked government to write to councils encouraging them to consider retro-fitting sprinklers, he said, adding that it had happened.

The spokesman added: “Our thoughts are with the residents and families of everyone caught up in this dreadful event. We stand ready to help in any way possible as the emergency services continue to stabilise the situation.

“The London Fire Brigade will be conducting their investigation and at this stage it would not be appropriate to comment on the cause of the fire.”

The Independent

Gavin Barwell: Theresa May's new chief of staff faces questions over delayed tower block fire safety review

Mr Barwell was housing minister when the review was again delayed, fire expert confirms


Theresa May’s new chief of staff faced questions on Wednesday over his role in a delayed fire safety review, after a deadly blaze tore through the Grenfell Tower in London.

Gavin Barwell failed to give the review the green light during his tenure as housing minister, despite it already having waited for years.

The fire expert behind a report calling for the desperately needed safety appraisal, said he had spoken to Mr Barwell earlier this year and the then-minister told him no decision on the review had been taken.

Former chief fire officer Ronnie King said: “Mr Barwell said he was still looking at it.”

Ex-MP Mr Barwell lost his ministerial job after being beaten by Labour in his Croydon constituency at the general election.

But after Ms May sacked her two chiefs of staff, Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill in the fallout of a botched campaign, Mr Barwell was hired as their replacement.

He was housing minister for 12 months before the election, but even before he came to office a review into the fire safety regulations had been outstanding for years.

It was called for by the All-Party Parliamentary Fire Safety & Rescue Group, after six people died and more than 20 were hurt in the 2009 blaze at Lakanal House in Camberwell .

But Mr King, the honorary administrative secretary of the group, said the review its report recommended had been shelved by successive ministers over the past four years.

Speaking to LBC radio, he said the group had looked at fire suppression measures in all the tower blocks with similar designs and noted that there were around 4,000 buildings with no fire sprinklers fitted.

He added: “Our group recommended that due to the speed that the fire spread in Lakanal House, that building regulations should be reviewed. It's nearly 11 years since it has been reviewed.

“Successive ministers since 2013 have said they are still looking at it.”

Mr King confirmed that earlier this year, Mr Barwell told him he was still considering the proposals.

He added: "Mr Barwell said he was still looking at it and was preparing to meet with the All-Party group. That's when the election was called and the meeting never happened.”

Hundreds of firefighters were sent to 24-storey Grenfell Tower in north Kensington, as large plumes of smoke billowed above the capital after the blaze broke out in the early hours of Wednesday morning.

Witnesses spoke of “terrifying” scenes, with some residents suggesting they heard no alarm go off when the fire began. At least 30 people have been taken to five hospitals and six are confirmed dead.

London Mayor Sadiq Khan has said there are "questions that have to be answered" after residents of the tower were told to stay in their flats in the event of a fire.

Mr Khan condemned the "bad advice" given to residents of the West London tower block that was engulfed in flames overnight, killing several inhabitants and leaving many trapped inside the burning building.

A newsletter to residents in 2014 said the "stay put" policy worked because the block had been designed according to “rigorous fire safety standards”.

The Independent

Grenfell Tower cladding that may have led to fire was chosen to improve appearance of Kensington block of flats

Material would help make the flats look better from outside, planners noted

The cladding that might have led to the horrifying blaze at Grenfell Tower was added partly to improve its appearance.

During a refurbishment aimed at regeneration last year, cladding was added to the sides of the building to update its look. The cladding then seems to have helped the fire spread around the building, allowing it to destroy almost the entirety of the structure and kill people inside.

And that cladding – a low-cost way of improving the front of the building – was chosen in part so that the tower would look better when seen from the conservation areas and luxury flats that surround north Kensington, according to planning documents, as well as to insulate it.

“Due to its height the tower is visible from the adjacent Avondale Conservation Area to the south and the Ladbroke Conservation Area to the east,” a planning document for the regeneration work reads. “The changes to the existing tower will improve its appearance especially when viewed from the surrounding area.”

The document, published in 2014 and providing a full report on the works, makes repeated reference to the “appearance of the area”. That is the justification for the material used on the outside of the building, which has since been claimed to have contributed to the horror.

The materials used were chosen “to accord with the development plan by ensuring that the character and appearance of the area are preserved and living conditions of those living near the development suitably protected,” according to the same report.

A number of conditions were attached to the 2014 decision to approve the plan – many of which related specifically to the material used in the cladding, so that the council could ensure the "living conditions of those living near the development" were "suitably protected".

The council noted that the cladding would also improve insulation, helping keep sound and cold out from the building, and improve ventilation. An environmental statement said that the "primary driver behind the refurbishment" was to address the insulation and air tightness.

"The reclad materials and new windows will represent a significant improvement to the environmental performance of the building and to its physical appearance," the planning application reads. "The design of the scheme as a whole has fully considered policy requirements, expectations and aspirations, fully taking into consideration the immediate and wider surroundings, particularly focussing on creating a wider environment that works as a coherent place," another part of the same document says.

That planning application concludes with a statement that "the development will provide significant improvements to the physical appearance of the Tower, as well as the environmental performance and the amenity of its residents".

Rydon, the company behind the refurbishment work, said the cladding and other changes had been made to help with "improving thermal insulation and modernising the exterior of the building".

A statement from Rydon after the work was finished noted that "rain screen cladding, replacement windows and curtain wall façades have been fitted giving the building a fresher, modern look".

That statement included a quote from Nick Paget-Brown, the leader of the council, who remarked on how happy he was to see "first-hand how the cladding has lifted the external appearance of the tower".

That public statement after the completion made no reference to insulation, only discussing the change in the external appearance of the building.

The refurbishment work that added the cladding cost Ł8.6m and finished in May last year. Both before and since that time, residents have repeatedly complained about the safety of the block, but were assured that there was no problem.

Councillor Judith Blakeman said questions would now be asked in the wake of those assurances.

“If the cladding was partly responsible for the fire we need to know what the specification for the cladding was and why it suddenly just went up (in flames) in about five minutes, because it should have been fire resistant, surely,” she said.

Ms Blakeman lives across the road and said she heard about the fire at 5am on the radio.

“I just rushed outside,” she said. “Neighbours had been watching it all night, they said the cladding went up like a nightdress by a fire – it just went whoosh.

“This is obviously part of the big refurbishment that finished about a year ago.”

The tower was built in 1974. But the refurbishment work brought a number of changes – new areas were added to the building, as well as the cladding.

Experts have repeatedly warned that the addition of cladding, which is regularly used to refresh old or unsightly buildings, can help spread fire. It can work like a chimney, they have warned, bringing up air that allows it to spread across a building quickly.

Chartered surveyor and fire expert Arnold Tarling, from Hindwoods, said the process can create a 25-30mm cavity between the cladding and the insulation.

“It produces a wind tunnel and also traps any burning material between the rain cladding and the building," he said.

“So had it been insulated per se, the insulation could fall off and fall away from the building, but this is all contained inside.”

He said not all insulation used in the process is the more expensive non-flammable type.

“So basically you have got a cavity with a fire spreading behind it," he added.

Angus Law, of the BRE Centre for Fire Safety Engineering at the University of Edinburgh, said: “Early media reports suggest that this event has similarities with other fires that have occurred recently around the world.”

He added: “The UK’s regulatory framework for tall residential buildings is intended to prevent the spread of fire between floors and between apartments.

“If spread of fire does occur, as has happened at Grenfell Tower, the consequences are often catastrophic.”

Construction firm Rydon, which carried out a Ł8.6m refurbishment of the exterior of Grenfell Tower last year, installing cladding and new windows, said its work “met all required building control, fire regulation, and health and safety standards.”

The Independent

It is wholly the responsibility of the state to ensure that buildings like this are regulated and safe to inhabit and the government must absolutely harness some of the responsibility for what has gone on here. Their reckless deregulation and cost-cutting, coupled with the very worst excesses of capitalism - corporate irresponsibility, gentrification and greed - putting profit before people, has caused this. They have blood on their hands and if there is any justice whatsoever the individuals who failed to adequately protect this building will be charged with manslaughter.

The only people who don't want this incident politicised are those who want to defend their precious party at all costs. Well I'm sorry, but if the residents have spent several years politicising this cause - knowing full well something like this was inevitable - and continue to do so in interviews after the fact, it will be. The only people who get a monopoly on whether or not this is a political issue are the residents. And nobody else.

And finally:

[MTVN]

There will obviously be large political ramifications from this and there will need to be some accountability but there's no point engaging in finger pointing before we know any of the details. Why not wait till the enquiry has been carried out and we have some concrete information before rushing to judgements. Many of the attempts to link the Tories to this fire have been quite tenuous. That first one for example refers to a bill on private sector accommodation but wasn't this a council owned building?

And if we do insist on politicising this early then what about the newly elected Labour MP for Kensington who sits on the board of the company that carried out the refurbishment..

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by MTVN

There will obviously be large political ramifications from this and there will need to be some accountability but there's no point engaging in finger pointing before we know any of the details. Why not wait till the enquiry has been carried out and we have some concrete information before rushing to judgements. Many of the attempts to link the Tories to this fire have been quite tenuous. That first one for example refers to a bill on private sector accommodation but wasn't this a council owned building?

And if we do insist on politicising this early then what about the newly elected Labour MP for Kensington who sits on the board of the company that carried out the refurbishment..

Here here,people just cant wait until we know the details,all they are interested in is mud slinging and scoring points,I would say it had been refurbished so obviously was't being neglected,there would be MANY people who will have to answer questions here as to what went wrong here,there are so many people we could blame but that fire hasn't gone cold yet and people are making it political,we could also blame the fridge manufacturer,the electrics,the lack of fire alarms,the lack of sprinklers,the cladding,so many things,people are human and will make mistakes ,that happens in all walks of life,lets find these people first ,then start the blame game.And yes MTVN,it was council owned,but they may have sub-let

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Here here,people just cant wait until we know the details,all they are interested in is mud slinging and scoring points,I would say it had been refurbished so obviously was't being neglected,there would be MANY people who will have to answer questions here as to what went wrong here,there are so many people we could blame but that fire hasn't gone cold yet and people are making it political,we could also blame the fridge manufacturer,the electrics,the lack of fire alarms,the lack of sprinklers,the cladding,so many things,people are human and will make mistakes ,that happens in all walks of life,lets find these people first ,then start the blame game.And yes MTVN,it was council owned,but they may have sub-let

As has been pointed out, it was refurbished with the cladding to make it look more appealing in the surrounding area. Gentrification in action.

The people who are making it political are the residents. Both before the fire, and after. They get to decide if now is the right time to be speaking out about it, and they have been. When repeated requests and pleas are ignored - and the company can send an email demanding that a blog be taken down purely for the protection of their own public image - serious questions need to be asked about the priorities of our society, because it seems to be profit over people. Capitalism in action.

With the exception of the fridge manufacturer all of the other things you listed can be explicitly traced back to the government. The state has a responsibility to ensure that housing regulations are being enforced and adhered to - and that legislation is sufficient and nuanced enough so as to ensure the safety of residents.

This incident is completely political. These events don't exist in a vacuum.

[bots]

if this is going to be a thread that promotes Jacks political agenda, i'm out

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

if this is going to be a thread that promotes Jacks political agenda, i'm out

You mean the residents political agenda? For over three years? If you don't care about their concerns and what led to this that's your prerogative, I do. Bye.

[Jack_]

Then she would need to be held accountable too, and if she played any major role she should resign and a by-election should be held. You know, people on the left are often accused of blindly supporting their cause and their party and never admitting when they've failed or could do things better, yet certainly in my case I condemn(ed) the Iraq War totally, understand that many of the worst examples of privatisation of public services began under the last Labour government, have not always been confident in Jeremy's leadership, think he needs to be clearer on his condemnation of the IRA, etc etc. And it just seems to me like no matter what the Tories do, literally anything, they will never, ever, ever, ever be held accountable, criticised or asked questions of by their supporters. No political party or politician is perfect (or wholly awful, to be fair), and they shouldn't be treated as such.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Then she would need to be held accountable too, and if she played any major role she should resign and a by-election should be held. You know, people on the left are often accused of blindly supporting their cause and their party and never admitting when they've failed or could do things better, yet certainly in my case I condemn(ed) the Iraq War totally, understand that many of the worst examples of privatisation of public services began under the last Labour government, have not always been confident in Jeremy's leadership, think he needs to be clearer on his condemnation of the IRA, etc etc. And it just seems to me like no matter what the Tories do, literally anything, they will never, ever, ever, ever be held accountable, criticised or asked questions of by their supporters. No political party or politician is perfect (or wholly awful, to be fair), and they shouldn't be treated as such.

We will know in due course why and how this happened and I expect it will prove that there has been failures at every level of government from both political parties stretching back years.The PM has already announced there will be a full and independent public enquiry so why the rush to regurgitate articles from a year ago about a proposed amendment to a housing bill as if this never would have happened if that amendment had passed. There seems to have been an almost giddiness in some circles to attribute blame as quickly as possible and paint it as Tories 100% at fault, Labour not at all. That's why all those articles that you have posted have gone viral and shared madly by Corbyn friendly journalists and websites but not many have been so keen to discuss times when Labour governments have loosened regulations and ignored concerns.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by MTVN

We will know in due course why and how this happened and I expect it will prove that there has been failures at every level of government from both political parties stretching back years.The PM has already announced there will be a full and independent public enquiry so why the rush to regurgitate articles from a year ago about a proposed amendment to a housing bill as if this never would have happened if that amendment had passed. There seems to have been an almost giddiness in some circles to attribute blame as quickly as possible and paint it as Tories 100% at fault, Labour not at all. That's why all those articles that you have posted have gone viral and shared madly by Corbyn friendly journalists and websites but not many have been so keen to discuss times when Labour governments have loosened regulations and ignored concerns.

[Ammi]

..I can completely understand why this has turned to 'politics' and anger so quickly, I mean it's just so unspeakably awful and for anyone involved directly in any way at all...(until those answers they need, do come... all of their emotions have to have a direction, so yeah anger...)...there is an accountability and that accountability may include one body or government or more than one and all will have to answer to their responsibility for the loss of those lives and the loss of those homes...I've been thinking about this constantly since it happened like most of us have and really do feel that it emphasises so much the divide of the 'haves' and the 'have not's'...I mean, what strikes me with this sought of devastation is how much it brings out a community of people all doing what they can to help..people like Leon....the very best of people because people are good, intrinsically good and they're good no matter what their political leaning, I meant that doesn't even come into it...they see suffering, they feel suffering so they help, they do what they can and what they're able to...those who don't have much themselves even because they see that the needs of others are more....I wonder what thoughts Theresa May had when she stepped into her home last night ...could she not have given a room/some rooms to some who were only given aa sport's hall for the night after what they had been through...I mean heck, why do we have a Royal family if they can't help in times like this...what is it...over 50 bedrooms and yet not for anyone in devastation at losing their home in such a way or all of those empty London hotel rooms that could have been offered...wouldn't it be wonderful if we could have a government leader who would actually offer personal help when that personal help is needed but it's only ever offered by the 'normal' people../the general public...so many others who are in a position to help...(and may actually bear some responsibility..).. just closing their just closing their door to the nightmare, not wanting to get too close to actually live any of it themselves....yeah, anger and I really can't blame that anger at all/this country for sure is pretty screwed up...oh and I read that when Theresa May visited Grenfell Tower, he didn't even speak to any of the residents still agonising over those who are missing from human being to human being and having lost everything they own...she didn't even think them worthy of talking to...?....pffffft, whether she was Conservative/Labour or whatever party...as a human being she falls very, very short in every way.....

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I can completely understand why this has turned to 'politics' and anger so quickly, I mean it's just so unspeakably awful and for anyone involved directly in any way at all...(until those answers they need, do come... all of their emotions have to have a direction, so yeah anger...)...there is an accountability and that accountability may include one body or government or more than one and all will have to answer to their responsibility for the loss of those lives and the loss of those homes...I've been thinking about this constantly since it happened like most of us have and really do feel that it emphasises so much the divide of the 'haves' and the 'have not's'...I mean, what strikes me with this sought of devastation is how much it brings out a community of people all doing what they can to help..people like Leon....the very best of people because people are good, intrinsically good and they're good no matter what their political leaning, I meant that doesn't even come into it...they see suffering, they feel suffering so they help, they do what they can and what they're able to...those who don't have much themselves even because they see that the needs of others are more....I wonder what thoughts Theresa May had when she stepped into her home last night ...could she not have given a room/some rooms to some who were only given aa sport's hall for the night after what they had been through...I mean heck, why do we have a Royal family if they can't help in times like this...what is it...over 50 bedrooms and yet not for anyone in devastation at losing their home in such a way or all of those empty London hotel rooms that could have been offered...wouldn't it be wonderful if we could have a government leader who would actually offer personal help when that personal help is needed but it's only ever offered by the 'normal' people../the general public...so many others who are in a position to help...(and may actually bear some responsibility..).. just closing their just closing their door to the nightmare, not wanting to get too close to actually live any of it themselves....yeah, anger and I really can't blame that anger at all/this country for sure is pretty screwed up...oh and I read that when Theresa May visited Grenfell Tower, he didn't even speak to any of the residents still agonising over those who are missing from human being to human being and having lost everything they own...she didn't even think them worthy of talking to...?....pffffft, whether she was Conservative/Labour or whatever party...as a human being she falls very, very short in every way.....

She was probably advised not to yet,we dont know,I doubt very much she would snub them personally,she could have been mobbed or it could have caused all sorts of problems,she was right at this time imo,to keep a low profile.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by MTVN

We will know in due course why and how this happened and I expect it will prove that there has been failures at every level of government from both political parties stretching back years.The PM has already announced there will be a full and independent public enquiry so why the rush to regurgitate articles from a year ago about a proposed amendment to a housing bill as if this never would have happened if that amendment had passed. There seems to have been an almost giddiness in some circles to attribute blame as quickly as possible and paint it as Tories 100% at fault, Labour not at all. That's why all those articles that you have posted have gone viral and shared madly by Corbyn friendly journalists and websites but not many have been so keen to discuss times when Labour governments have loosened regulations and ignored concerns.

Well I'm not one of them. As I said, I do not blindly follow a political party - and if there were legislation introduced under Labour governments that failed to prevent this incident from occurring, then the party and ministers of the time must also burden some of the responsibility. I realise deregulation and privatisation in a lot of sectors began under the last Labour government, and I have and will always condemn it wholeheartedly. Also, I'm really not convinced that a public inquiry would actually alter what I believe to be true - that the Tories will never, ever be condemned for anything by their supporters. Only time will tell, but I'd be willing to wager now that if any responsibility is found to be laid at the feet of a Conservative minister and/or policy, the excuses will come in thick and fast. I would not for a minute try to suggest that certain people on the left aren't ridiculously dogmatic in their support for Corbyn and the Labour Party, but from my perception at least, it seems on here that it's actually Tories who are far more tribal. I just find the whole thing bizarre, because sometimes government policy is culpable for tragedies, and there's no getting away from that.

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Do you have any response to my post or are emoticons the order of the day?

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Then she would need to be held accountable too, and if she played any major role she should resign and a by-election should be held. You know, people on the left are often accused of blindly supporting their cause and their party and never admitting when they've failed or could do things better, yet certainly in my case I condemn(ed) the Iraq War totally, understand that many of the worst examples of privatisation of public services began under the last Labour government, have not always been confident in Jeremy's leadership, think he needs to be clearer on his condemnation of the IRA, etc etc. And it just seems to me like no matter what the Tories do, literally anything, they will never, ever, ever, ever be held accountable, criticised or asked questions of by their supporters. No political party or politician is perfect (or wholly awful, to be fair), and they shouldn't be treated as such.

All those dead and all you want is a resignation.

[Cherie]

Shameful that the outside was tarted up but safety ignored, in truth there probably would have been fewer if no fatalities without the cladding as the fire wouldn't have taken hold, it's desperately sad