[Vicky.]

Stepping back from this topic now as tbh, it seems I cannot win no matter what (what a surprise ) but I will say, I will not be effectively bullied into saying a male person is actually female.

Of course it would be different if I had just randomly said 'Lauren harries is a man' for no reason at all but when its actually relevant to the conversation? I will acknowledge that her sex is male. Its not her sex WAS male, her sex still is male. She is a male person who had cosmetic surgery to look more like a woman, to alleviate the dysphoria she felt over her sexed body. I would have no issue using she and her about Harries, and I would not randomly say if she was infront of me 'you are a man' nor would I randomly say on a topic about her, without an actual reason/relevance 'she is male'. But Lauren knows she is male, why is it so horrendous for me to know this too?

Lauren was brought up in what I feel was meant to be a 'haha, got ya' type way, and I was blunt in my beliefs. I do not believe male people can be lesbians. I am positive that my view is not some kind of minority fringe view like people try to make out.

Either way, I do try to be understanding and actually take on board other peoples views. But I will be honest and say that I have a very had time trying to understand viewpoints such as 'people can actually change sex' and 'male people can actually be female' and 'transactivisim is not misogynistic and homophobic' and such. Oh, along with the need some have to bring up lesbians whenever discussing male people in female areas. I find that pretty crappy tbh. Thats not something only found on here, its extremely common in discussions about this elsewhere...like 'you are not happy with male people in female prisons? That must mean you are not happy with lesbians being in female prisons, should they be in with the men?' which basically to me reads as saying lesbians are men, or like men in some way.

And I do not think that acknowledging biological sex is transphobic either. If this is peoples bar for what constitutes transphobia and what does not, they will always be sorely disappointing with moderating. The trans topic is unlike anything we have ever seen before, as effectively everyone is expected to forget everything they know, and suspend reality in a way as to pretend that male and female are not actual real things. We cannot be deleting people/banning people for posting about biology/reality as we currently know it. If this means that we are seen as transphobic ourselves, so be it.


So yeah, this was meant to be just a line or two saying I was stepping back now, but I rambled on a bit more. I won't be replying anymore to this thread now...so do your worst I also won't be pretending that I do not acknowledge biology so that people feel better about the way I express my viewpoints. Sorry.

[Kizzy]

'Cis scum' is something that gets used as an insult,'

Well there you are, it's already being used to slur people for no apparent reason other than that is how they were born? is that not 'phobic'...'cisphobic'? Is that a thing?

As I said it's another way to sideline, marginalise and make women appear less than.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

The term woman means I consider myself to be a woman and or was born a woman.

Transwoman is the term for someone who transitioned into a female I believe.

'Woman' is gender specific though, whereas 'cis' isn't. Just as 'trans' on it's own isn't. And for trans to exist as a word that describes a state of being, there has to be an opposite to that in language, somebody who isn't trans. And that's all that 'cis' does. If you were to describe someone as not being transsexual, for example as a way of highlighting a trans issue that might effect people who aren't transsexual, then you might need to describe that the person you are talking about is not transsexual. That's literally all that cis exists for. I think Shaun said in an earlier post that by having a word like that instead of just saying woman/transwoman or man/transman, is that it reduces the likelihood of people saying things like 'normal' woman differentiate, because there's a word for it. And if we're just talking about people, then it would be people/transpeople, removing transpeople from the category of 'people'. Instead we can say 'cis people'.

Originally Posted by smudgie

Does this mean we have cis men as well?
All these labels just make things more confusing.
Surely woman is enough to define a woman, the same as man is to define a man.
Trans should mean just that, someone who has transitioned, therefore can be classed as who they have transitioned to. There should be no shame or embarrassment about this.
As to all this men with a penis calling lesbians who refuse to sleep with them transphobic..well, wake up call, they just don’t fancy you, get over yourself.

Yes, cis is completely gender neutral, it only means that a person isn't trans, regardless of birth sex/how they view themselves etc etc

Originally Posted by Kizzy

'Cis scum' is something that gets used as an insult,'

Well there you are, it's already being used to slur people for no apparent reason other than that is how they were born? is that not 'phobic'...'cisphobic'? Is that a thing?

As I said it's another way to sideline, marginalise and make women appear less than.

Yes it would be an insult, I suppose that could be considered cis phobic. Just like calling someone white trash could be considered racist. But the white person is still white, it doesn't stop the descriptor from being accurate.
And 'cis scum' wouldn't marginalise women as it doesnt mention women, like I said it's not gender specific.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

'Cis scum' is something that gets used as an insult,'

Well there you are, it's already being used to slur people for no apparent reason other than that is how they were born? is that not 'phobic'...'cisphobic'? Is that a thing?

As I said it's another way to sideline, marginalise and make women appear less than.

Anything can be used as an insult.

The accent you speak with, the town you're from, your sexuality, your gender, your hair colour, your job, your clothes, your nationality, your skin colour etc etc.

Does that make any of those individual things insults themselves? No not at all.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Anything can be used as an insult.

The accent you speak with, the town you're from, your sexuality, your gender, your hair colour, your job, your clothes, your nationality, your skin colour etc etc.

Does that make any of those individual things insults themselves? No not at all.

If that has been specifically engineered to be used as a derogatory term as this to me has then I have every right to reject it, and I do.

If it wasn't and it's been hijacked by prejudiced people as other terms have been throughout the ages then why is it not seen as acceptable to drop the term?... Have women to be complicit in their own degradation?

I don't think so.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

'Cis scum' is something that gets used as an insult,'

Well there you are, it's already being used to slur people for no apparent reason other than that is how they were born? is that not 'phobic'...'cisphobic'? Is that a thing?

As I said it's another way to sideline, marginalise and make women appear less than.

100% agree with this.

[bots]

it's interesting to me that the people shouting transphobia are the same ones that insist on calling people cis when the have been repeatedly told that others are offended when being addressed with that term

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

it's interesting to me that the people shouting transphobia are the same ones that insist on calling people cis when the have been repeatedly told that others are offended when being addressed with that term

It is indeed. It seems only certain groups have the right to be offended and the rest are just expected to put up with it.

[Kizzy]

I'm out of here too, you be a cisman if you like...you don't hear that term banded round much I see though

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I'm out of here too, you be a cisman if you like...you don't hear that term banded round much I see though

You don't hear cis banded around much at all. Except when you venture into trans-discussions. Funny that.

You don't really help your cause throwing words around like "mansplaining" as though just because I happen to be male and you happen to be female, I must be mansplaining.

If the marginalisation of women is something you take great issue with, you don't do yourself any favours marginalising yourself where you don't need to.

[Twosugars]

Marsh & Jamie89 - respect

Kizzy, would it be ok for a straight man to protest and call himself simply a man? Coz he is not gay so while a gay man is a gay man he is a man, meaning a normal man?

[Twosugars]

Dunno if there's much fuss about the term cis outside of tibb, but if there is the maybe find something less controversial, even if clumsier, like nontrans?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Dunno if there's much fuss about the term cis outside of tibb, but if there is the maybe find something less controversial, even if clumsier, like nontrans?

It's still trans-related, so therefore an issue.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

It's still trans-related, so therefore an issue.

don't understand it, but ok.
personally don't have a problem with that as it'd be used in trans-related discussions only, I imagine
and it is nicely symetric reminiscent of chemical isomers

Cisgender has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis-, meaning "on this side of", which means the opposite of trans-, meaning "across from" or "on the other side of"
wikipedia def.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

don't understand it, but ok.
personally don't have a problem with that as it'd be used in trans-related discussions only, I imagine
and it is nicely symetric reminiscent of chemical isomers

Cisgender has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis-, meaning "on this side of", which means the opposite of trans-, meaning "across from" or "on the other side of"
wikipedia def.

Exactly. But if someone is determined to be offended, they'll be offended.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Exactly. But if someone is determined to be offended, they'll be offended.

True.

I had no idea before reading this convo, but it looks like women feel somehow threatened in all this. I don't pretend to undestand why, can only guess.

Could it be that women feel protective of their gender identity and hard fought-for rights and see transgender as another encroachment into their domain by men?

[Livia]

Kizzy and I almost never agree, but I have to say I'm 100% behind her on this one.

[Marsh.]

Why?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Why?

Because I feel the same way that she does about this subject.

Edit: and having skimmed the thread, I'm also totally in agreement with Niamh and Vicky.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Because I feel the same way that she does about this subject.

No, I meant why do you feel "cis" marginalises women?

Nobody else has actually explained the reasoning behind this and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

No, I meant why do you feel "cis" marginalises women?

Nobody else has actually explained the reasoning behind this and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

I've never heard it, I don't need it and I don't want it. I'm a heterosexual woman. That's all you need to know.

Some people like to pigeon-hole others. I hate that. I particularly hate it when it's a pigeon hole that's been made up on the spot and which I do not recognise.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

I've never heard it, I don't need it and I don't want it. I'm a heterosexual woman. That's all you need to know.

Some people like to pigeon-hole others. I hate that. I particularly hate it when it's a pigeon hole that's been made up on the spot and which I do not recognise.

It's not pigeon-holing, it's a description. Much like heterosexual. Or white. Or British. Or blonde. Or gay. Or catholic.

So, why the issue with cis and not heterosexual?

[Twosugars]

I wonder if before gay rights people objected the same way? I'm not a hetersexual man, I'm a man, simple as.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

I wonder if before gay rights people objected the same way? I'm not a hetersexual man, I'm a man, simple as.

well plenty people prefer not to talk about what type of sex they like


i would be like if someone introduced themselves in such a rude manner

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

well plenty people prefer not to talk about what type of sex they like


i would be like if someone introduced themselves in such a rude manner

Well, since when does someone knowing your sexuality mean they suddenly know how you like it in bed?