[WOMBAI]

Hope the little cowardly ****es get long, long sentences!

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-...ctoria_Station

[Patrick]

Good.

Poor lad

[30stone]

I seriously cant understand what goes through their mind when they are considering stabbing somone.
I just cant even imagine it..

Some people carry knives now just because they are scared it will happen to them..

madness.

[WOMBAI]

Whatever happend to fisticuffs - when a dispute occurs. Why do idiots have to use knives! And 12 of them - cowards in the extreme!

[Crimson Dynamo]

i wonder is any of the attackers came from a home that had a mum and a dad?

doubt it

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

i wonder is any of the attackers came from a home that had a mum and a dad?

doubt it

That is somewhat of a sweeping statement! Don't buy into comments that families without fathers are dysfunctional! Many fathers are dysfunctional! It is the type of upbringing that counts - and that is not necessarily related to the presence or not of a father figure! That is just an easy cop-out!

[Shasown]

I wonder if the victim was there to partake in the reported "organised gang fight" and if he went tooled up same as the others. Or was he an innocent bystander they decided to target.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

That is somewhat of a sweeping statement! Don't buy into comments that families without fathers are dysfunctional! Many fathers are dysfunctional! It is the type of upbringing that counts - and that is not necessarily related to the presence or not of a father figure! That is just an easy cop-out!

i would wager 90%

what would you say?

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Shasown

I wonder if the victim was there to partake in the reported "organised gang fight" and if he went tooled up same as the others. Or was he an innocent bystander they decided to target.

Interesting point! However - even if the former was the case - I believe he and his two friends (I think there were 3 of them from what I remember) were hugely outnumbered - so was never a fair fight, so to speak!

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Interesting point! However - even if the former was the case - I believe he and his two friends (I think there were 3 of them from what I remember) were hugely outnumbered - so was never a fair fight, so to speak!

Simply because the police have arrested and charged a large number of people with murder does not mean it was that number against the victim and his friends, under Joint Enterprise anyone in the assembly who did not overtly try to prevent the crime at the time of it being committed can be charged with murder too. Regradless of who actually stabbed the victim.

Its an old legal doctrine, over 300 years old that is still on the statute books, but it has been brought back into use to help fight gang violence. Basically if you are a member of the group and another member of the group commits a crime, you can be held responsible for that crime even though you didnt intend to commit it. Unless it can be proven that you tried to stop it.

In this case if the assembly consisted of a number of gangs and they were there for a fight, which resulted in someone dying, they could all be charged and even convicted of murder, especially if the person(s) who committed the murder cannot be identified.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Simply because the police have arrested and charged a large number of people with murder does not mean it was that number against the victim and his friends, under Joint Enterprise anyone in the assembly who did not overtly try to prevent the crime at the time of it being committed can be charged with murder too. Regradless of who actually stabbed the victim.

Its an old legal doctrine, over 300 years old that is still on the statute books, but it has been brought back into use to help fight gang violence. Basically if you are a member of the group and another member of the group commits a crime, you can be held responsible for that crime even though you didnt intend to commit it. Unless it can be proven that you tried to stop it.

In this case if the assembly consisted of a number of gangs and they were there for a fight, which resulted in someone dying, they could all be charged and even convicted of murder, especially if the person(s) who committed the murder cannot be identified.

Well I guess the idea of bringing it back includes encouraging the innocent to name the guilty - rather than be convicted of something they didn't do!

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Well I guess the idea of bringing it back includes encouraging the innocent to name the guilty - rather than be convicted of something they didn't do!

Some may not have seen it, some may have and already informed the police(unlikely) however the police may have charged all those involved as a tactic to obtain corrobative statements from others.

It also depends on the events leading up to and during the murder, if others were encouraging or cheering the murderer(s) on then they are as guilty as the killer(s) in the eyes of the law.

[Jack_]

...and to think I considered using the tube on my own to travel next week. No wonder my parents didn't like the idea.

I was at London Victoria Station a few months back. Scary stuff.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Jack_

...and to think I considered using the tube on my own to travel next week. No wonder my parents didn't like the idea.

I was at London Victoria Station a few months back. Scary stuff.

Now you have gangs of knife welding teenagers to worry about as well as terrorist attacks - what a wonderful country this has become!

[Jords]

Its really quite disgusting, things like this make me so mad, the poor guy.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Jords

Its really quite disgusting, things like this make me so mad, the poor guy.

Just can't imagine how scared he must have been - noone should die like that - especially at 15!

[Jords]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Just can't imagine how scared he must have been - noone should die like that - especially at 15!

I know, its terrible. :/ Like you said, theyre nothing more than a bunch of low life cowards that have nothing better to do than ruin other peoples lives! Because although they have only killed once person, think of all the people who are gonna be heartbroken by the loss.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

That is somewhat of a sweeping statement! Don't buy into comments that families without fathers are dysfunctional! Many fathers are dysfunctional! It is the type of upbringing that counts - and that is not necessarily related to the presence or not of a father figure! That is just an easy cop-out!

Actually, I think a lack of father figures is a huge part of the gang problems. Not only do they lack the strong disciplinary presence that a father brings but they also lack a potentially good role model. Of course, some fathers are bad role models. So are some Mothers. Especially weak Mothers.

Those first 7-8 years of a childs life are crucial. If you don't instill the basics(respect, manners, civility etc) into a child in those years then you will have a hell of a job trying to do it later on.

Many join gangs precisely because they come from broken homes and desperately need to belong. Gangs become their adopted family; they will literally die, kill or serve prison time for their new blood. So lack of Fathers is a very valid issue here.

What looks like a very male related issue(ie; gang violence) can be very much traced back to the choices females make. Like who fathers their children. So many females do not put enough thought into this and just go with their own selfish needs; I know of many females who are attracted to bad boy types and will deliberately get pregnant as a way of trapping them. Thinking it will tame them! Next thing we have another fatherless child. Then there's the needy women with low self esteem. They have children to fill their own emotional needs; don't care much about who the father is or whether he'll be there for the childs life.

It seems to be acceptable these days for women to have children without a father. Even using sperm banks. This is disastrous for society and we are certainly seeing the affects. Im not knocking mothers who become single through valid reasons. But many have just made very selfish choices.

[bbfan1991]

Another young life wasted poor guy and I feel for his family, glad these people will get their commeupance.

It's getting worse and worse this gang culture yet the press doesn't help with their stereotypical articles of young people in the UK that we're all like that.. these cowardly and thuggish gang members actually give us a bad name.

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

i wonder is any of the attackers came from a home that had a mum and a dad?

doubt it

Haha, you think every child that grows up in a single parent family is going to be violent?

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Zippy

Actually, I think a lack of father figures is a huge part of the gang problems. Not only do they lack the strong disciplinary presence that a father brings but they also lack a potentially good role model. Of course, some fathers are bad role models. So are some Mothers. Especially weak Mothers.

Those first 7-8 years of a childs life are crucial. If you don't instill the basics(respect, manners, civility etc) into a child in those years then you will have a hell of a job trying to do it later on.

Many join gangs precisely because they come from broken homes and desperately need to belong. Gangs become their adopted family; they will literally die, kill or serve prison time for their new blood. So lack of Fathers is a very valid issue here.

What looks like a very male related issue(ie; gang violence) can be very much traced back to the choices females make. Like who fathers their children. So many females do not put enough thought into this and just go with their own selfish needs; I know of many females who are attracted to bad boy types and will deliberately get pregnant as a way of trapping them. Thinking it will tame them! Next thing we have another fatherless child. Then there's the needy women with low self esteem. They have children to fill their own emotional needs; don't care much about who the father is or whether he'll be there for the childs life.

It seems to be acceptable these days for women to have children without a father. Even using sperm banks. This is disastrous for society and we are certainly seeing the affects. Im not knocking mothers who become single through valid reasons. But many have just made very selfish choices.

That sounds very much like a 'blame the mother' way of thinking! I hear no mention of the father's responsibility! It does take two!

There are plenty of good strong mothers who are quite capable of disciplining their children, and meeting their emotional needs - including boys! Many children are fatherless because of irresponisble fathers who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions.

Many fathers are just too weak to cope with fatherhood - because they are too selfish and have never grown up properly! The women are nearly always the ones that face their responsibility - and rarely abandon their children the way many men do!

Of course, ideally, children should have two loving, responsible parents - but we don't, never have and never will live in an ideal world! In the past, men were rarely there for their children - their role was to bring in the money - the rest was mainly left to the mothers. Although things have improved in that respect, still all too many men run away from their responsibilities.

There are faults on both sides - but educating women and men into taking equal responsibility for the consequences of their actions - instead of blaming women for making poor choices - seems likely to be much more productive!

And men can only be trapped if they allow themselves to be! Any man/boy that has any sense and has sex (outside of a strong, loving relationship) should understand the need to use protection. Despite what the woman may say about the pill etc - he should take action to protect himself! Just common sense! Short of being raped - he has no right to whinge about being trapped.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

That sounds very much like a 'blame the mother' way of thinking! I hear no mention of the father's responsibility! It does take two!

There are plenty of good strong mothers who are quite capable of disciplining their children - including boys! Many children are fatherless because of irresponisble fathers who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions.

Many fathers are just too weak to cope with fatherhood - because they are too selfish and have never grown up properly! The women are nearly always the ones that face their responsibility - and rarely abandon their children the way many men do!

Of course, ideally, children should have two loving, responsible parents - but we don't, never have and never will live in an ideal world! In the past, men were rarely there for their children - their role was to bring in the money - the rest was mainly left to the mothers. Although things have improved in that respect, still all too many men run away from their responsibilities.

There are faults on both sides - but educating women and men into taking equal responsibility for the consequences of their actions - instead of blaming women for making poor choices - seems likely to be much more productive!

And men can only be trapped if they allow themselves to be! Any man/boy that has any sense and has sex (outside of a strong, loving relationship) should understand the need to use protection. Despite what the woman may say about the pill etc - he should take action to protect himself! Just common sense! Short of being raped - he has no right to whinge about being trapped.

Whilst in a lot of cases the weak men arguement does hold true, there are also women who walk away from the kids and family home, often without any real reason. The father then is left to bring up the children. There are also cases where one parent dies. So in some cases it isnt about sidestepping responsibility.

But for the rest of your points, no disagreement. Good post.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

That sounds very much like a 'blame the mother' way of thinking! I hear no mention of the father's responsibility! It does take two!

the rest was mainly left to the mothers. Although things have improved in that respect, still all too many men run away from their responsibilities.

There are faults on both sides - but educating women and men into taking equal responsibility for the consequences of their actions - instead of blaming women for making poor choices - seems likely to be much more productive!

And men can only be trapped if they allow themselves to be! Any man/boy that has any sense and has sex (outside of a strong, loving relationship) should understand the need to use protection. Despite what the woman may say about the pill etc - he should take action to protect himself! Just common sense! Short of being raped - he has no right to whinge about being trapped.

Women choose the father of their children. Choose somebody who is likely to stick around and be a good father. Men do not like wearing rubbers so it will never ever be difficult for a woman to get a man to have sex with her bareback; truth is, men dont think straight when theyre horny and stiff. Cliched but true. Its women who carry the consequences so I cant imagine why you would let a man **** you without any contraception. Unless you actually want to get pregnant. Insist he rubbers up if not.

The choices a man has regards children pretty much end when he shoots his load. From that point on its all about what the woman wants. A man can make a drunken mistake but its the woman who then has the power to make him pay for that mistake. If they both agree it was a mistake then why should he then be forced to be a father when she has all the options? Having children is a womans prerogative so spare me the equal responsibility nonsense. It will only be equal when men have a 50% say in whether a woman carrys that child for 9 months and then what they do with it after its birth.

And if these gang members have only had a female parent then how can you blame men for how they turned out? You can only blame the parent that has been there. I agree that single mothers CAN raise decent children. But those who raise bad children deserve criticism for it. Like Ive said, THEY chose the father of that child in the first place so if he buggered off then you made a BAD CHOICE.

It only takes two to conceive a child. Actually, these days it only needs one.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Zippy

Women choose the father of their children. Choose somebody who is likely to stick around and be a good father. Men do not like wearing rubbers so it will never ever be difficult for a woman to get a man to have sex with her bareback; truth is, men dont think straight when theyre horny and stiff. Cliched but true. Its women who carry the consequences so I cant imagine why you would let a man **** you without any contraception. Unless you actually want to get pregnant. Insist he rubbers up if not.

The choices a man has regards children pretty much end when he shoots his load. From that point on its all about what the woman wants. A man can make a drunken mistake but its the woman who then has the power to make him pay for that mistake. If they both agree it was a mistake then why should he then be forced to be a father when she has all the options? Having children is a womans prerogative so spare me the equal responsibility nonsense. It will only be equal when men have a 50% say in whether a woman carrys that child for 9 months and then what they do with it.

And if these gang members have only had a female parent then how can you blame men for how they turned out? You can only blame the parent that has been there. I agree that single mothers CAN raise decent children. But those who raise bad children deserve criticism for it. Like Ive said, THEY chose the father of that child in the first place so if he buggered off then you made a BAD CHOICE.

It only takes two to conceive a child. Actually, these days it only needs one.

I think you miss the point! To excuse men from their responsibility because they don't like wearing a rubber and only think with their dick is the old, old, story and just doesn't wash! Men don't think straight when aroused - well if they expect to be taken seriously - then they better start doing so, hadn't they! If this is another consequence of getting drunk - they hey don't get drunk! Ffs take some responsibility! You just prove my point! That is not man thinking - it is very much boy thinking! Sorry, but true!

Men have their say at the time of conception - use it wisely - or shut up whinging!

Men also have responsiblity for how their children turn out - by not being there to ensure the child's emotional stability! You can make excuses all you like for men - they simply aren't good enough!

[hennessy]

Originally Posted by Zippy

Women choose the father of their children. Choose somebody who is likely to stick around and be a good father. Men do not like wearing rubbers so it will never ever be difficult for a woman to get a man to have sex with her bareback; truth is, men dont think straight when theyre horny and stiff. Cliched but true. Its women who carry the consequences so I cant imagine why you would let a man **** you without any contraception. Unless you actually want to get pregnant. Insist he rubbers up if not.

The choices a man has regards children pretty much end when he shoots his load. From that point on its all about what the woman wants. A man can make a drunken mistake but its the woman who then has the power to make him pay for that mistake. If they both agree it was a mistake then why should he then be forced to be a father when she has all the options? Having children is a womans prerogative so spare me the equal responsibility nonsense. It will only be equal when men have a 50% say in whether a woman carrys that child for 9 months and then what they do with it after its birth.

And if these gang members have only had a female parent then how can you blame men for how they turned out? You can only blame the parent that has been there. I agree that single mothers CAN raise decent children. But those who raise bad children deserve criticism for it. Like Ive said, THEY chose the father of that child in the first place so if he buggered off then you made a BAD CHOICE.

It only takes two to conceive a child. Actually, these days it only needs one.

OMG this
I know if I had to have a child having unprotected sex I would be on the pill and make sure that the man carried condoms and so would I.
At the moment my bestfriend has just had a child with a woman of 32 who has now with my friend's child 6 kids from 5 fathers.
She tried to trap them but they couldn't handle her needy personalty.
My friends lives with her and is happy but she is incredibly possessive.