[Omah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...ntral-16144640

Two teenagers who used Facebook to try to start a riot in a Scottish city have been locked up for three years each.

Shawn Divin, 16, and Jordan McGinley, 18, were administrators of a Facebook page called "Riot in the toon" which urged people to "kill some daftys".

The Dundee riot page was published during the summer's unrest in England.

Divin, who was described as an inmate at Polmont youth offenders institute, and McGinley, from Dundee, had earlier pleaded guilty to breaching the peace.

Sheriff Elizabeth Munro sentenced Divin to a total of four years and three months, which included one year for breaching a previous probation order and three months for breaching his bail by inciting riots.

Dundee Sheriff Court heard that the Facebook page encouraged others to smash up buildings, loot shops and attack police officers at the time of the riots which swept several English cities in August.

The sentence seems harsh considering that they'd pleaded guilty to a crime in which no damage was done - what if the "riot" had taken place - would they have got life sentences ?

[Ramsay]

I remember some other guys getting the same sentance a few months ago for the same reason
Bit over the top yeah they should just get fined or something

[Scarlett.]

They'll be out in a year, since they already will have served sometime and will probably be out on good behavior.

[Niamh.]

I suppose they need to come down hard on things like this, It so easy for people to organize **** like this on facebook so they need to be discouraged from doing it by harsh sentencing.

[Jack_]

I'm glad they're doing this, if only they implemented such a 'no tolerance' kind of scheme across the board of crimes then things may start to move forward in the right direction with regards to crime levels.

[MTVN]

It's ridiculous, and quite scary really that you can be locked up for years for creating a Facebook page. They did the same to a couple of guys who also made a Facebook event for a riot which never even took place, and that nobody showed up to, I'm not sure if anything actually happened here? Either way it's quite draconian IMO, and judges often hand out a lot more lenient sentences than they did here and for much worse crimes than making an event page on Facebook

[Pyramid*]

Good enough for them and glad it wasn't some pathetic community service and a rap on the knuckles.

Quite a few other Judges could take a leaf out of this sentencing Judge's book.

If anyone thinks it's too harsh: go have a look at the Manchester riots, those hurt and the millions of pounds worth of damaged caused - not just to buildings, but for some: their livliehoods were destroyed.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by MTVN

It's ridiculous, and quite scary really that you can be locked up for years for creating a Facebook page. They did the same to a couple of guys who also made a Facebook event for a riot which never even took place, and that nobody showed up to, I'm not sure if anything actually happened here? Either way it's quite draconian IMO, and judges often hand out a lot more lenient sentences than they did here and for much worse crimes than making an event page on Facebook

They didn't get locked up for creating a Facebook page or making an event.

They got locked up for creating a facebook page which was designed only for one purpose: to trying to incite riots, to smash up buildings, loot shops and attack police officers . Not quite as innocent sounding when you put it into context.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Snowball

Good enough for them and glad it wasn't some pathetic community service and a rap on the knuckles.

Quite a few other Judges could take a leaf out of this sentencing Judge's book.

If anyone thinks it's too harsh: go have a look at the Manchester riots, those hurt and the millions of pounds worth of damaged caused - not just to buildings, but for some: their livliehoods were destroyed.

That's such a bad basis for a justice system. It's like giving someone 10 years just for speeding because somebody else who was speeding crashed their car and killed somebody

[arista]

Originally Posted by Omah

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...ntral-16144640



The sentence seems harsh considering that they'd pleaded guilty to a crime in which no damage was done - what if the "riot" had taken place - would they have got life sentences ?

Harsh?

Its about setting a Example like we did

[InOne]

Take them out to the moors and shoot them.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Snowball

They didn't get locked up for creating a Facebook page or making an event.

They got locked up for creating a facebook page which was designed only for one purpose: to trying to incite riots, to smash up buildings, loot shops and attack police officers . Not quite as innocent sounding when you put it into context.

Yes Great Point

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by MTVN

That's such a bad basis for a justice system. It's like giving someone 10 years just for speeding because somebody else who was speeding crashed their car and killed somebody

Not saying things should ever go that far, but you know if that ever were to happen at least we might be living in a far safer world than we are now. People might actually learn to stop speeding then instead of us all being guilty of doing it, just trying to avoid being caught for it.

[Omah]

Originally Posted by Snowball

If anyone thinks it's too harsh: go have a look at the Manchester riots, those hurt and the millions of pounds worth of damaged caused - not just to buildings, but for some: their livliehoods were destroyed.

But the Dundee two caused NO DAMAGE .....

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

That's such a bad basis for a justice system. It's like giving someone 10 years just for speeding because somebody else who was speeding crashed their car and killed somebody

No it's not at all. The intent here was to actually start a riot. A person speeding doesn't go out with the intent to kill someone.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by MTVN

That's such a bad basis for a justice system. It's like giving someone 10 years just for speeding because somebody else who was speeding crashed their car and killed somebody

It is nothing of the sort, and I suspect you know that all too well.

It's spot on, given that it was when the riots were spreading and starting up in other parts of the UK.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Omah

But the Dundee two caused NO DAMAGE .....

I'll let you read my further comment a few posts back for further details.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Christmas Neeve

No it's not at all. The intent here was to actually start a riot. A person speeding doesn't go out with the intent to kill someone.

But you still going out knowing the potential consequences of speeding and that it's going to be dangerous.. I see your point but I still don't think it's right to give someone a sentence like this on the basis of what could have happened, at the end of the day they were two idiots just being stupid on Facebook, they say it was only as a joke and considering there was stuff like "let's show the English how it's done" it wouldn't surprise me if it was. Nothing even happened as a result of this, and 3 years? That's the kind of sentence that drug dealers get, that rapists sometimes get, it's the kind of sentence that is given for assault or a knife attack, crimes that do actually have serious consequences

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Omah

But the Dundee two caused NO DAMAGE .....

And? If someone came up to me in the street and threatened to stab my heart out I'd want them imprisoned for my own personal safety, the same thing applies here except instead of protecting an individual, the idea is to protect an entire area. Why leave things under the pretense that 'oh, it hasn't happened yet so we won't bother', for it then to possibly happen and for it to be too late? Why not prevent those chances of anything happening early?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

But you still going out knowing the potential consequences of speeding and that it's going to be dangerous.. I see your point but I still don't think it's right to give someone a sentence like this on the basis of what could have happened, at the end of the day they were two idiots just being stupid on Facebook, they say it was only as a joke and considering there was stuff like "let's show the English how it's done" it wouldn't surprise me if it was. Nothing even happened as a result of this, and 3 years? That's the kind of sentence that drug dealers get, that rapists sometimes get, it's the kind of sentence that is given for assault or a knife attack, crimes that do actually have serious consequences

Well, tbh I think that those crimes you've listed, especially the violent ones, should have even higher sentences, but that's for another day!

As for the what could have happened bit, I don't really see it as that, what I see it as is people actively trying to organize another mob of vandals and robbers, during a time when it was rampant across Britain.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Jack_

And? If someone came up to me in the street and threatened to stab my heart out I'd want them imprisoned for my own personal safety, the same thing applies here except instead of protecting an individual, the idea is to protect an entire area. Why leave things under the pretense that 'oh, it hasn't happened yet so we won't bother', for it then to possibly happen and for it to be too late? Why not prevent those chances of anything happening early?

But would you expect them to get the same sentence as someone who did actually stab you in the heart?

The lines are being blurred here between potential crimes, and actual crimes, they're not the same thing, you can't create some kind of equivalency between creating a facebook page for a riot and actually causing one, actually causing serious damage, actually causing arson, actually causing theft etc. etc.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by MTVN

But you still going out knowing the potential consequences of speeding and that it's going to be dangerous.. I see your point but I still don't think it's right to give someone a sentence like this on the basis of what could have happened, at the end of the day they were two idiots just being stupid on Facebook, they say it was only as a joke and considering there was stuff like "let's show the English how it's done" it wouldn't surprise me if it was. Nothing even happened as a result of this, and 3 years? That's the kind of sentence that drug dealers get, that rapists sometimes get, it's the kind of sentence that is given for assault or a knife attack, crimes that do actually have serious consequences

Really? You think so?

I'll put you in touch at least 2 drug dealers who got 18 years here in Scotland....... perhaps the English justice system is simply too soft.

so in your mind, if someone started a FB page for no other reason than to incite (for example) let's select fanatical types who loathe the western way, to go burn down chapels, churches, bomb bars and pubs, to attack the Police Officers who help uphold our Laws and put their lives at risk to protect us, you think that that's okay to do, and it's not a problem, nor is it likely to be one?

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Christmas Neeve

Well, tbh I think that those crimes you've listed, especially the violent ones, should have even higher sentences, but that's for another day!

As for the what could have happened bit, I don't really see it as that, what I see it as is people actively trying to organize another mob of vandals and robbers, during a time when it was rampant across Britain.

Fair enough, maybe I'm just too liberal

Originally Posted by Snowball

Really? You think so?

I'll put you in touch at least 2 drug dealers who got 18 years here in Scotland....... perhaps the English justice system is simply too soft.

so in your mind, if someone started a FB page for no other reason than to incite (for example) let's select fanatical types who loathe the western way, to go burn down chapels, churches, bomb bars and pubs, to attack the Police Officers who help uphold our Laws and put their lives at risk to protect us, you think that that's okay to do, and it's not a problem, nor is it likely to be one?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...s-2339699.html

This is comparing some of the sentences given to rioters to sentences given to non rioters, I know it's 4 years but others who commited the same crime as these did get 4

Riots

Jordan Blackshaw, 21, from Marston, and Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, 22, from Warrington, were each jailed for four years at Chester Crown Court on Tuesday after setting up Facebook pages encouraging a riot in Northwich. Although the police were the only ones who arrived at the proposed rendezvous, the pair were both arrested.

Non-riots

Tesfaye Bramble, the brother of footballer Titus, was jailed for four and a half years on 5 August for the rape of a 19-year-old who told the court: "I cried like I've never cried in my life."

Rajinder Dutt, 31, was jailed for four years for supplying heroin in November 2008. Dutt, from Leicester, was part of a £10m operation which brought Class-A drugs with a value of £1.3m into Gloucestershire.

There's a huge drug dealing operation right there that only got 4 years

And like I said in my reply to Jack, I think it's blurring the lines between potential crimes and actual crimes

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by MTVN

But would you expect them to get the same sentence as someone who did actually stab you in the heart?

The lines are being blurred here between potential crimes, and actual crimes, they're not the same thing, you can't create some kind of equivalency between creating a facebook page for a riot and actually causing one, actually causing serious damage, actually causing arson, actually causing theft etc. etc.

No, but as Niamh touched on the sentences for those that do commit those sorts of crimes are already too short, so they should be extended and those threatening these sorts of crimes should be given these sort of sentences.

I wouldn't expect them [or want them, for that matter], to be given the same sentence as someone who did commit that particular crime, however I would want them to be given a lengthy sentence not only for my personal safety, but also to teach them that even making threats regarding things like that won't be tolerated, just as it shouldn't be.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Fair enough, maybe I'm just too liberal



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...s-2339699.html

This is comparing some of the sentences given to rioters to sentences given to non rioters, I know it's 4 years but others who commited the same crime as these did get 4


There's a huge drug dealing operation right there that only got 4 years

And like I said in my reply to Jack, I think it's blurring the lines between potential crimes and actual crimes

Perhaps the English judicial system might want to look to the Scottish side: seeing as they do seem to give out very lenient sentences in comparison.

I think the point you may be missing is: it is less to do with 'nothing actually happened' but more to do with putting over the message, "Don't even think about doing this, or you'll pay dearly for it".