[the truth]

This idea has been strongly mooted by some politicians
'Cool card'

In the United States, people on "food stamps" are given a pre-payment card that they can use to buy food and other essentials - but not luxuries such as alcohol and tobacco.

The reasons I like the idea is that it makes it harder for some people to simply have kids to get handouts and then waste it on vices like smoking drinking then spending far too little on the kids (i.e. cheap food and second hand clothes etc)

your thoughts?

[joeysteele]

I would be against the idea, I know a fair number of people who do think certain benefits and entitlements should be paid this way, thankfully not a majority of people I know though.

Personally,I think it would be a bad road to start to go down, if people are entitled to benefits make it that they get cash if that is how they want it.
Otherwise it stinks of a sort of control rather than an entitlement and once it began for one thing where would it end eventually.

[Vicky.]

It makes it harder for people to budget...unless it could be made so that the vouchers could be used universally (including markets and such)

Plus implementing it would no doubt mean another massive handout to a private company.

[Vicky.]

Also, it wouldnt stop people as you descirbe from doing anything really. they would just sell the vouchers to others for half price or whatever and then still buy their cigarettes/booze. I already know one person who does this with the 'fruit and veg' vouchers that new parents get

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Also, it wouldnt stop people as you descirbe from doing anything really. they would just sell the vouchers to others for half price or whatever and then still buy their cigarettes/booze. I already know one person who does this with the 'fruit and veg' vouchers that new parents get

people like that should have their kids taken off them

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

people like that should have their kids taken off them

I think thats going a bit too far, but yeah I dont agree with it at all.

That said, I dont agree with the fact that one of my 'friends' buys the vouchers off them either.

But introduce child benefit paid in vouchers/cards this will just happen more. Those who want cash, will get the cash either way. And since the vouchers most likely would only be accepted in supermarket chains and that, its just punishing those who shop around for good deals :/

Most reasonable people already spend the child benefit on the kids anyway. Those who dont, will find ways around it, they always do.

[Ammi]

..I don't think it's the majority of people who spend it on alcohol, cigarettes etc though...most people on benefits that I know budget very carefully and their children are prioritised...I think it's hard enough for peope to do that though without it changing to vouchers, which seems to me like a demoralising thing to do...


..and then Birthdays and Christmas etc and anytime parents save up for a treat for their children...so the government would decide how many vouchers to give them and how much they can spend, even if they've saved up for it and budgeted under the present scheme....take away all their choices...?...

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I don't think it's the majority of people who spend it on alcohol, cigarettes etc though...most people on benefits that I know budget very carefully and their children are prioritised...I think it's hard enough for peope to do that though without it changing to vouchers, which seems to me like a demoralising thing to do...


..ans then Birthdays and Christmas etc and anytime parents save up for a treat for their children...so the government would decide how many vouchers to give them and how much they can spend, even if they've saved up for it and budgeted under the present scheme....take away all their choices...?...

Again as always a fair and reasoned view, with compassion in there too.Well said.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I don't think it's the majority of people who spend it on alcohol, cigarettes etc though...most people on benefits that I know budget very carefully and their children are prioritised...I think it's hard enough for peope to do that though without it changing to vouchers, which seems to me like a demoralising thing to do...


..ans then Birthdays and Christmas etc and anytime parents save up for a treat for their children...so the government would decide how many vouchers to give them and how much they can spend, even if they've saved up for it and budgeted under the present scheme....take away all their choices...?...

lots of people I know who gets child benefits smokes like a trooper in front of their kids at home. many smoke during pregnancy too... at Ł8 a pack thats an expensive hobby. a lot of them drink too. no sign of a proper oven either, its usually microwave meal too....theyd be better off with tokens I dont care how much it upsets the parents

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

lots of people I know who gets child benefits smokes like a trooper in front of their kids at home. many smoke during pregnancy too... at Ł8 a pack thats an expensive hobby. a lot of them drink too. no sign of a proper oven either, its usually microwave meal too....theyd be better off with tokens I dont care how much it upsets the parents

Are you talking of just child benefit, or unemployment benefits(but including child benefit)?

I ask because the majority of people who recieve child benefit are actually in work. Its paid to anyone who has an income of below 60k

And again, if they are that set in their ways that they spend all their money on ciggies and booze, then tokens wont make the slight bit of difference as they will just sell the tokens to their friends.

That said, tokens could stop these people on good wages who just save up the child benefit in order to go on holiday with it. Those kinds of people definitely do not need it. It should only be paid to those most in need IMO.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I don't think it's the majority of people who spend it on alcohol, cigarettes etc though...most people on benefits that I know budget very carefully and their children are prioritised...I think it's hard enough for peope to do that though without it changing to vouchers, which seems to me like a demoralising thing to do...


..ans then Birthdays and Christmas etc and anytime parents save up for a treat for their children...so the government would decide how many vouchers to give them and how much they can spend, even if they've saved up for it and budgeted under the present scheme....take away all their choices...?...

sadly the parents are taking away all the kids choices, this is why the government and social workers sometimes have to step in....the kids come first before the egos and the selfishness of parents

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by the truth

lots of people I know who gets child benefits smokes like a trooper in front of their kids at home. many smoke during pregnancy too... at Ł8 a pack thats an expensive hobby. a lot of them drink too. no sign of a proper oven either, its usually microwave meal too....theyd be better off with tokens I dont care how much it upsets the parents

..ok, that's your own personal experience and fair enough if you know lots of people who's priorities are themselves and not their children...but my experience couldn't be more different to that...there are parents like you say, I can't deny that but for me they are very much the minority..I come into contact with many families..(in the hundreds at any one time..).. through my work and I'm also aware of their circumstances and if I kind of multiply that by the amount of years I've been working then that's a lot of familes..and I can honestly say that maybe there have been a small handful of parents who haven't prioritised their children..and thought about their own needs more...

..maybe you're right and 'lots of people do' but I still don't think that 'lots' of people represents a very large percentage... as the majority are loving and nurturing parents, who try their very best.... no matter what their financial situation..this is not about upsetting parents at all..it just doesn't seem necessary and in my view is quite a demoralising thing to do....

[Ammi]

..oh and like Vicky asked..do you mean child benefits that people get for their children when they earn under a certain income..or families on income support..?...

..not everyone does 'need' their child benefit if that's what you mean...but it wasn't their decision to have it..and if the government are going to give it to them then yeah, they may put it into a uni fund or something like that..they can't be criticised for that either because they've been given something...but I think it would be better to make the income much lower and maybe increase benefits for the ones who do need it a bit more...that's something that would help..but to carry on giving it to everyone they have decided to, but then try to take away their choices on how they plan and budget is just wrong in my opinion....

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..ok, that's your own personal experience and fair enough if you know lots of people who's priorities are themselves and not their children...but my experience couldn't be more different to that...there are parents like you say, I can't deny that but for me they are very much the minority..I come into contact with many families..(in the hundreds at any one time..).. through my work and I'm also aware of their circumstances and if I kind of multiply that by the amount of years I've been working then that's a lot of familes..and I can honestly say that maybe there have been a small handful of parents who haven't prioritised their children..and thought about their own needs more...

..maybe you're right and 'lots of people do' but I still don't think that 'lots' of people represents a very large percentage... as the majority are loving and nurturing parents, who try their very best.... no matter what their financial situation..this is not about upsetting parents at all..it just doesn't seem necessary and in my view is quite a demoralising thing to do....

your world seems the total opposite of mine, sorry my experience is almost 100% different

what kind of parent has 6 or 7 kids and neither works yet decides to have yet more kids? I know of some families with 9 kids, 6 dogs , no jobs and all on the benefits? at what stage does one say sorry enough is enough? at what stage does a parent have to ask themselves, can I afford to have more and more children? do I have the right to ask the rest of society work to pay for and feed and cloth this huge number fo children?

most responsible people find someone they love then consider what kind of life they can offer a child before they actually attempt to have 1 child let alone 8 or 9 children

dont these workless parents consider that an aspect of bringing up children is hard work, making it for oneself, showing the children a hard working role model?

young healthy adults have no right to a lifetime of benefits imho....they should all work if they are healthy.

often these parents cannot be questioned or advised or they soon get aggressive and violent. they all tell you how much they love their kids, well I dont believe them. is it love to smoke and swear and fight and drink in front of your kids? is it love to show them a workless household, how to live off the benefits from work done by other honest hardworking people? is if love to learn them these poor habits? what about aspirations? what about healthy living? what about work? what about ambition? education? what about an environment large enough for children to grow up properly? Im not saying you cant have love in a small house of 10 kids....but its different to 50 years ago, when a working family worked hard for pittance....these are people who dont work deliberately. they get pregnant in order to jump the queue for a free house, then to get more benefits and so on

one chap with 4 kids, a pretty hideous fellow, told me one night he had to get so smashed that night as he was being means tested the next day and needed to get such a high quantity of alcohol in his blood system to ensure he goes up a level on his benefit.....the same individual is violent, heavy drinker, cheat son his missus and well lets just say does a lot fo bad things

this is the problem we have created with this politically correct culture of dependence.....everyone things they have a right to handouts forever, with no responsibility.....they also think that by simply telling everyone theyre a great parent it means they are one. self praise is no recommendation. ask the kids what they think about living with 10 kids loads of pets in a 4 bedroomed terrace with parents who drink , smoke , dont work and no doubt dont even find the will to cook proper meals in a proper oven

[Vicky.]

Yeah I think you have been very 'unlucky' with the kind of people you have come across in your personal life thetruth. In actual fact, not many of these people on benefits with 7/8/9 kids exist (there are apparently 360 people in the whole country with 9 kids and on benefits according to the dwp) despite what the papers make out.

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/...fits-cap/11739

Yes, 360 is still too many, I agree. However I doubt all of those will have had all those children while never working a day in their lives.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by the truth

your world seems the total opposite of mine, sorry my experience is almost 100% different

what kind of parent has 6 or 7 kids and neither works yet decides to have yet more kids? I know of some families with 9 kids, 6 dogs , no jobs and all on the benefits? at what stage does one say sorry enough is enough? at what stage does a parent have to ask themselves, can I afford to have more and more children? do I have the right to ask the rest of society work to pay for and feed and cloth this huge number fo children?

most responsible people find someone they love then consider what kind of life they can offer a child before they actually attempt to have 1 child let alone 8 or 9 children

dont these workless parents consider that an aspect of bringing up children is hard work, making it for oneself, showing the children a hard working role model?

young healthy adults have no right to a lifetime of benefits imho....they should all work if they are healthy.

often these parents cannot be questioned or advised or they soon get aggressive and violent. they all tell you how much they love their kids, well I dont believe them. is it love to smoke and swear and fight and drink in front of your kids? is it love to show them a workless household, how to live off the benefits from work done by other honest hardworking people? is if love to learn them these poor habits? what about aspirations? what about healthy living? what about work? what about ambition? education? what about an environment large enough for children to grow up properly? Im not saying you cant have love in a small house of 10 kids....but its different to 50 years ago, when a working family worked hard for pittance....these are people who dont work deliberately. they get pregnant in order to jump the queue for a free house, then to get more benefits and so on

one chap with 4 kids, a pretty hideous fellow, told me one night he had to get so smashed that night as he was being means tested the next day and needed to get such a high quantity of alcohol in his blood system to ensure he goes up a level on his benefit.....the same individual is violent, heavy drinker, cheat son his missus and well lets just say does a lot fo bad things

this is the problem we have created with this politically correct culture of dependence.....everyone things they have a right to handouts forever, with no responsibility.....they also think that by simply telling everyone theyre a great parent it means they are one. self praise is no recommendation. ask the kids what they think about living with 10 kids loads of pets in a 4 bedroomed terrace with parents who drink , smoke , dont work and no doubt dont even find the will to cook proper meals in a proper oven

..I understand what you're saying but I still feel that it's a very small percentage of people on income benefits..but if you do encounter them daily then I can see your view..but that's also going down a different path and isn't about whether vouchers would be a better route..and I still think it won't because it won't change anything for the parents and families you are referring to..they won't suddenly start prioritising their children just because they have vouchers...they'll just find another way..so I don't think it's helpful at all....

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I understand what you're saying but I still feel that it's a very small percentage of people on income benefits..but if you do encounter them daily then I can see your view..but that's also going down a different path and isn't about whether vouchers would be a better route..and I still think it won't because it won't change anything for the parents and families you are referring to..they won't suddenly start prioritising their children just because they have vouchers...they'll just find another way..so I don't think it's helpful at all....

I think thats a defeatist way to approach it.....by giving it in tokens ir vouchers or the way they do it in america is with a card like a library card which can only be used to buy certain goods....this at least improves the chances of it being spent on the right things i.e. the kids.....where I live trust me this is not a minority. the fact not enough is spent on the kids, i.e. healthy foods and drinks, balanced diets etc books, education, health visits etc this has a damaging effect on every aspect of their lives.....is it coincidence in one parent britain we have massive levels of child ill health and obesity? poor diet is also related to attention deficit disorder, diabetes, behavioural issues, bi-polar disorders etc etc you herd 10 kids and dogs and workless parents into a small space and youre creating an environment of poor conditions, poor aspirations, poor health too, these kids havent even got room for their imagination. how many kids learn from their parents? about 100% of them...if theyre around workless ness, they too will become workless, if theyre around smoking and booze, they too will become smokers and boozers and develop all the health problems that come with that...is that loving parenting? No.

[joeysteele]

I don't agree that if you are around smokers you become a smoker too, it may happen in some instances but I am around people every day who smoke and have been all my life so far as to family, neighbours and friends.
I haven't wanted to smoke ever, I tried a cigarette once and wondered what the fuss was about, to me it was a waste of money but then me buying loads of CDs may seem a waste of money to others.

The Truth, I do read what you say and I also do agree usually with you a fair amount of the time but on this I feel it is too general to lump everyone into the same grouping as to benefit recipients.
As Ammi says, vouchers given to people would only have them pass them on or use them for others in order to get the cash required for other things like alcohol and cigarettes for instance.

I also, as I said earlier,think vouchers or a special payment card is a very bad way to go and I personally doubt any UK government would go down that route for all benefits anyway or even just child benefit.
In your opening post, you described alcohol and cigarettes as a luxury,I don't see them as that either. In moderation I see no reason why people on benefits should not have the right to buy them just like any other UK citizen has.

The older members of my family, tell me of the days when it was near being anti-social not to smoke.
If we start on the health issues of smoking and alcohol then even more doors can then be opened extending that to even what shouldn't be bought as to eat that is not good for people either.

I agree more with the views that child benefit should maybe be means tested but never paid in vouchers or a specifically controlled card either.
You seem to have come across in the main the people who seem to abuse benefits.
Like Ammi, I have come across some of those but they are in my opinion a small minority of the people I have talked to and come across as to people on benefits, child benefit and all other benefits too.

Vouchers or a specifically controlling payment card is not the way to go in the UK in the 21st century and in relation to the problems that would cause and also lack of choice and freedom that would do to people on benefits, I hope it is something that never happens in the UK.

[GypsyGoth]

I don't see how someone buying tobacco or alcohol is for the benefit of the child. But I'm not sure how to punish parents who do stuff like that. And as mentioned the voucher system won't prevent people trading them to others for cash, but it would prevent a parent spending child benefit the money on a book for the child.

Also maybe child benefit could be paid for maybe the first three kids someone has or something like that

In reality I think the money is meant to go to the child's betterment and is meant to be a hand up for them in society, so they can have a good childhood, I don't think it's a handout.

[joeysteele]

I also don't think it could be considered right to spend child benefit on alcohol and/or cigarettes.
Most of the people I have come across who get it, don't do that with it, they may spend some of the other benefits they get on those things though.

I still think it is likely a minority who do spend any part of child benefit on alcohol or cigarettes and it is all too easy to demonise all for the irresponsible actions of a few.
Vouchers and specialised payment cards are definitely not in any way at all an answer in my view.

[GypsyGoth]

I agree joey, I think the sentiment is right, but in practice it wouldn't solve the misuse of child benefit.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I also don't think it could be considered right to spend child benefit on alcohol and/or cigarettes.
Most of the people I have come across who get it, don't do that with it, they may spend some of the other benefits they get on those things though.

I still think it is likely a minority who do spend any part of child benefit on alcohol or cigarettes and it is all too easy to demonise all for the irresponsible actions of a few.
Vouchers and specialised payment cards are definitely not in any way at all an answer in my view.

in works in america and several other countries

Whenever people talk about voucher programs, what they are really doing is stripping away money from people who need it the most and are guaranteed to spend it in local businesses.

Giving people vouchers will basically ****** up the economy even more.

The truth - if it really does work in America like you say, can you please explain why Paul Ryans idea to take medicare away from seniors to be replaced with a voucher was such a powerful motivation for voters in the last election?

Vouchers don't work in America, they are forced down the throats of the citizens.

Once vouchers are guaranteed, then costs of services will go through the roof.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

Whenever people talk about voucher programs, what they are really doing is stripping away money from people who need it the most and are guaranteed to spend it in local businesses.

Giving people vouchers will basically ****** up the economy even more.

The truth - if it really does work in America like you say, can you please explain why Paul Ryans idea to take medicare away from seniors to be replaced with a voucher was such a powerful motivation for voters in the last election?

Vouchers don't work in America, they are forced down the throats of the citizens.

Once vouchers are guaranteed, then costs of services will go through the roof.

as usual foul language and ill informed.

HOW SNAP WORKS

SNAP benefit levels are based on the Thrifty Food Plan (TFP), a market-basket of food updated annually by USDA representing the minimum amount a family could spend on groceries for a nutritionally adequate diet. The TFP is adjusted according to household size and income to determine benefit levels.

SNAP benefits are delivered monthly to eligible participants through electronic debit (EBT) cards that can be used to purchase groceries at over 200,000 authorized retailers nationwide.[i] SNAP EBT cards are programmed to only allow the purchase of food. Other items sold at authorized retailers are prohibited, including vitamin supplements, hot or prepared food[ii], non-food grocery items, alcoholic beverages, and cigarettes.[iii] Senior, homeless, or disabled participants, who may lack the ability to prepare meals at home, may also purchase prepared meals at low-cost restaurants

[the truth]

'No booze' smart cards for benefit claimants who spend their handouts on drugs and alcoholFeckless welfare claimants will be given Oyster-style cards which only work in certain shops to buy household and food essentials
Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith will target 120,000 problem families with new scheme
By Tim Shipman
PUBLISHE 02:18, 13 October 2012 | UPDATE 15:42, 13 October 2012
Comments (493) Share

..


Action: Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith
Feckless welfare claimants who spend their benefits on drugs and alcohol will be handed smart cards so they can only spend state handouts on food and essentials.
Plans being drawn up by Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith will see the 120,000 problem families targeted with Oyster-style cards which can only be used in certain shops.
That will mean those who waste their welfare money would only get the cash if it is used for certain items in chosen shops.
Items that could be bought include food, clothes and household essentials.
Mr Duncan Smith has ordered civil servants to draw up a scheme modelled on welfare reforms in Australia, where welfare credit cards have already been used with success.
The first welfare recipients to get the cards are expected to be drug addicts and alcoholics, or those who are problem gamblers, in order to ensure that taxpayers’ money is not used to fuel addiction and dependency.
That could pave the way for payment cards to be used more widely.
Mr Duncan Smith’s aides say he is also keen to use the restricted payouts to help turn around the problem families who are blamed for the epidemic of antisocial behaviour in Britain today.
A report published by Louise Casey, the tsar for troubled families, found that the families who cause the most problems are distinguished by drug and alcohol problems.
The plans would require a change in the law since it is currently illegal for ministers to decree what benefits cash is spent on.


Getting tough: Benefit claimants who spend their handouts on alcohol and drugs face a crackdown. (Posed by models)
‘I am looking at the moment at ways in which we could ensure that money we give [benefit claimants] to support their lives is not used to support a certain lifestyle,’ he said.
Asked about Australian use of smart cards, he added: ‘I am certainly looking at it - I am going through that in some detail. With the use of cards, we are looking at that to see if we can do something.

There would be some legislative issues that we would have to go through about allowing us to say “you cannot spend your money exactly where you like it”.’

Prevention: The cards should stop claimants spending their benefits on alcohol
The plans will be controversial since defenders of maintaining handouts will accuse the government of attempting social engineering.
But civil servants are now studying papers on the experience in Australia, where the scheme has just been rolled out nationwide after being pioneered in Queensland and the Northern Territories.
The Basics cards, as they are called, can only be used to purchase 'priority' items such as food, housing, clothing, education and health care.
The government puts the money electronically on the card once a fortnight, when people receive their benefit payments.

Between 50 per cent and 70 per cent of income is 'quarantined' for essential needs depending on the individual’s circumstances. The rest is available as cash.
Mr Duncan Smith believes the scheme is better than food stamps, which are issued in some American states since those can be swapped for drugs.
A senior official at the Department of Work and Pensions said: ‘Food tokens don’t work because they can be traded on the black market.

Credit cards would not be for everyone claiming benefits but they could be used for extreme cases where people are not good at managing their lives like drug users or those with children living in poverty where money needs to be spent on food and clothes not drugs and alcohol.
‘Iain has asked the civil servants to look into this quickly.’


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Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-alcohol.html#




the liberals are against it, why? because this is their core support voter base and the majority who have a lifetime on benefits yet have no disability are against it simply because it endangers their lazy scrounger lifestyle and free handouts for booze cigarettes and mobile phones.....this at least ensures more of th ebenefits go directly to the children and to their welfare, their nutrition, clothes and heaitng etc etc

It is working successfully in australia and I applaud the government for attemtping this