[armand.kay]

Originally Posted by lostalex

there's no such thing as boys clothes and girls clothes, or boys toys and girls toys.

It sounds like a fascinating experiment. It can't be any more damaging than "traditional" parenting, which already leads to the violence, rape, and murder rates we have in society now.

As weird as I find this story I agree with you.

[Jessica.]

When I have children I will let them pick their own clothes, if I have a son and he wants to wear a tutu with bells on it and use a wand pretending to be a fairy then it's not my business to stop him because it's not harmful. I think these people have the idea right but they are doing it in the wrong way, especially by making it something public.

I think it's not fair on children to make them feel like they can't express themselves how they want or even in situations that wouldn't be a big deal. For example, if my nephew came to stay in my house and got wet in the rain, he would prefer to wear his wet t-shirt than borrow one of his sisters for a short time, just because he would actually be embarrassed to wear something for "girls".

[Shaun]

Too much consideration and worry placed on what will happen to him at school, or what people will say about him. If adults bitching about what a child is wearing is really that bothersome to you you need to just remind yourself you're not an adult bitching about what a child is wearing. Whatever kids say about him can be dealt with by the school's disciplinary system.

[lostalex]

I don't remember caring at all what i was wearing when i was a kid. i really didn't care. i honestly don't remember how or why i picked what clothes i put on each day when i was a little kid. I literally just grabbed things out of my drawers and put them on. It wasn't until puberty that i cared about what i wore.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by lostalex

I don't remember caring at all what i was wearing when i was a kid. i really didn't care. i honestly don't remember how or why i picked what clothes i put on each day when i was a little kid. I literally just grabbed things out of my drawers and put them on. It wasn't until puberty that i cared about what i wore.

Depends on the child I guess, my son started being funny about what he was wearing when he was 4 years old, it was weird things as well like he didn't like a certain t shirt because it had stripes on it and stuff like that

[daniel-lewis-1985]

Why can she not just teach the boy moral values? This will probably do more harm than good.

Kids are cruel and seeing as this child sees this as 100% normal he's bound to speak about it in school ending in bullying from other children.

I suspect this kid will have a lot of mental health issues in his later years.

[Jack_]

Gender neutral parenting is a perfectly acceptable and progressive idea, but it does seem like they're not exactly implementing it right as others have pointed out.

Gender codes and stereotypes are very damaging to society, and the quicker we try to eradicate them, the more social problems we will solve. I think someone in this thread said something like 'I don't think the majority of boys would be interested in playing with Barbie' or words to that effect - and well...why is that? Because boys are brought up to wear boys clothes, have 'play fights', have toys that are men and are figures of authority, power and strength, the list goes on. They don't just pop out of the vag and immediately start craving some Action Men dolls or to watch Robot Wars, these behaviours and beliefs are taught, learned. They aren't biological or ascribed, they are socialised attitudes given by society, parents, schools, the media etc. The way you conquer that is by reversing the attitudes of those institutions and making gender concepts neutral, equal and open.

I think everyone in this thread should watch the videos in this thread that I posted a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/foru....php?p=6692593

The trailers for those films highlight the damaging nature of both male and female gender stereotypes, and continuing to socialise children to adhere to these ridiculous, man-made concepts is damaging and restrictive to the freedom of a child to determine the kind of person they want to be, not someone that is identified by their gender. The only difference people really have are biological ones - i.e. what you've got downstairs, every child is born as a blank slate, and it is the messages and stereotypes that you instil in them that makes them either a 'man' or a 'woman' - that is, a person that adheres to the roles that society has told them they must act out since they have either a cock or a ***t.

As for the idea of the child being bullied - well yes that is almost certainly a problem, but I've always hated this idea that we should repress children's behaviour in fear of them being bullied. What exactly does that solve? Why are people running scared of bullies instead of actually addressing the real problem which is changing the bullies themselves? People are bullied when they are different, part of a minority - so the more you increase something, the more normal it becomes, and the less reason people have to single you out for it. The more children integrate with people of different skin colours, nationalities and sexualities, the more accepting and understanding they become of each other, this is the same for anything. The more people that take the bull by the horns and trial this kind of thing, the less it becomes something out of the ordinary, and the less children can be bullied for it.

[Niall]

Originally Posted by Kyle

It's almost as if these parents seem to think that the only reason boys don't play with girls toys and wear girls clothes is because of a fear of being mocked. I'm sure there are a small minority of boys who would get pleasure out of playing with Barbie or my little pony and wearing a pink tutu but I don't think the vast majority would be interested and that's why I don't think everybody should be subjected to it so early.

I don't think it's that the vast majority wouldn't be interested, but rather they're socialised to be disinterested in female encoded objects from a young age. Straight after birth you're already colour coded into a gender (blue or pink) and it just progresses from there. Adverts targeted at young boys often play up the gender angle to exploit them as a market, and in doing so it encourages preference on those stereotypically 'male' things over the female ones.

And the bizarrely sexist/patriarchal nature of female-oriented toys often renders them boring too. If female toys were given the same focus on making the product dynamic and exciting instead of the rather stale doll and house formula then I'm sure many boys would be much more interested in picking them up too.

It's not a case of being subjected to anything too early because.. well that's already rampant in society today.

[smudgie]

Heaven knows why the parents are making an issue out of it.
We had a "dressing up box" when or kids were little,if our son wanted to walk up and down in high heels we never thought any more of it than our daughter dressing up as a cowboy.
Son was bought a little dinner service, daughter was bought train sets etc
Kids veer towards what they want to play with, just give them plenty of options.
Nothing new or forward thinking in these parents at all. Just letting the child do what they want is the best way.

[Josy]

Idiotic.

Trying to prove gender is in no way an issue by turning it into an issue.

And the mother saying she hopes he isn't bullied just shows that she knows he will and it will be because of them.

Just let the kid make his own decisions ffs.

[Tom4784]

The idea of turning your own child into some sort of social experiment is repugnant.

I think the idea of Gender Neutral parenting is pretty pointless, If the boy shows signs of wanting to play with dolls and such then support him but don't force it on him. I just think this parenting style is going to cause more problems down the line then it's going to solve.

The thought that raising a boy traditionally creates aggression is moronic, confusion causes aggression, hardship causes aggression and resentment creates aggression among other things. The boy's going to be confused as hell when he grows up and he'll possibly even resent his parents for raising him in that way. It's an idealistic and ultimately flawed way of raising a child.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

The idea of turning your own child into some sort of social experiment is repugnant.

I think the idea of Gender Neutral parenting is pretty pointless, If the boy shows signs of wanting to play with dolls and such then support him but don't force it on him. I just think this parenting style is going to cause more problems down the line then it's going to solve.

The thought that raising a boy traditionally creates aggression is moronic, confusion causes aggression, hardship causes aggression and resentment creates aggression among other things. The boy's going to be confused as hell when he grows up and he'll possibly even resent his parents for raising him in that way. It's an idealistic and ultimately flawed way of raising a child.

Yes exactly, it's very bad and self indulgent parenting imo. I agree very much with what Smudgie said also, if you don't want a child to play with just "boy toys" etc because society tells you that's what they should be doing then give them all the different options and let them choose themselves. Don't blatantly separate the two and give them separate times etc, that's only enforcing the gender stereotypes

[Z]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I'm not sure about this...surely it will lead to more confusion in the child? I can get allowing him to play with "girls" toys but I'm not sure about dressing him in girls clothes. Children need to determine their own identity and self awareness. The sentiment is good I think, most parents love their children unconditionally regardless of sex, future sexual orientation etc.

But do you not think that by letting him dress up and play with all these different things, they're actually allowing him to determine his own identity? If they were just raising him like most other people raise their kids, he would have an identity imposed upon him that he would accept as his own once he reached a certain age, for example: you like football, you spike your hair up, you play with toy cars...

Once you get past the unusual nature of what they're doing, I actually think it's a really wonderful thing. They're teaching him that he can be whoever he wants to be without fear of judgment from them from birth. Isn't that what all children want to hear from their parents? They won't judge him if he turns out to be any different from anyone else because they're encouraging him to be whoever he wants to be. I mean it's not like this is so isolated; Sweden not long ago introduced a gender neutral pronoun that people can use instead of he/she/him/her so that if people want to be ambiguous about gender and not discriminate in any way, they now have the vocabulary for that.

[Ninastar]

I love how these parents almost always want to go public with their stories. Perhaps it's to raise awareness... but I personally think otherwise. I've never been a fan of this. It's just so... pointless.

I don't think it is fair on the child. He was born a boy and if you don't want him to be 'damaged by stereotypes' then raise him to not give a damn about stereotypes. Let him wear clothes with pink, let him play with dolls, let him play dress up, but don't tell him he is a girl because he's not. Kids have no idea what girls toys/boys toys actually are until their about 4 onwards. I don't think it's fair for parents to tell their kids 'you can be a girl if you want to' when they it's physically impossible unless they actually get a sex change. I understand when older people believe they are stuck in the wrong body and that is fair enough, they can believe that if they like. But it is so wrong to convince and influence your child into thinking they can be more than one gender, or the gender of the opposite sex.

I am all for letting girls and boys playing with whatever toys they like. It's just toys. Girls playing with naked barbie dolls and boys playing with naked wrestling dolls? it's funny how those are meant to be the stereotypical 'straight kid toys' don't you think?

All I care about is children being praised for who they are, the way they were born and not raised as a social experiment. I just personally don't think it's fair. You can call me ignorant/small minded all you like, I don't give a damn. Kids shouldn't be made to change for the parents benefit.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Zee

But do you not think that by letting him dress up and play with all these different things, they're actually allowing him to determine his own identity? If they were just raising him like most other people raise their kids, he would have an identity imposed upon him that he would accept as his own once he reached a certain age, for example: you like football, you spike your hair up, you play with toy cars...
Once you get past the unusual nature of what they're doing, I actually think it's a really wonderful thing. They're teaching him that he can be whoever he wants to be without fear of judgment from them from birth. Isn't that what all children want to hear from their parents? They won't judge him if he turns out to be any different from anyone else because they're encouraging him to be whoever he wants to be. I mean it's not like this is so isolated; Sweden not long ago introduced a gender neutral pronoun that people can use instead of he/she/him/her so that if people want to be ambiguous about gender and not discriminate in any way, they now have the vocabulary for that.

..I don't see that what they're doing does the same thing though...my boys didn't always play with stereotypical 'boy' toys, I don't think that really matters but I think with this, the method they're using..judgement from others will be exactly what he gets...

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Zee

But do you not think that by letting him dress up and play with all these different things, they're actually allowing him to determine his own identity? If they were just raising him like most other people raise their kids, he would have an identity imposed upon him that he would accept as his own once he reached a certain age, for example: you like football, you spike your hair up, you play with toy cars...

Once you get past the unusual nature of what they're doing, I actually think it's a really wonderful thing. They're teaching him that he can be whoever he wants to be without fear of judgment from them from birth. Isn't that what all children want to hear from their parents? They won't judge him if he turns out to be any different from anyone else because they're encouraging him to be whoever he wants to be. I mean it's not like this is so isolated; Sweden not long ago introduced a gender neutral pronoun that people can use instead of he/she/him/her so that if people want to be ambiguous about gender and not discriminate in any way, they now have the vocabulary for that.

Yeah I agree conceptually its a great idea. I did post later that I think they are enforcing the stereotypes further though by having morning as a boy and allowing him to play with boys toys and afternoons as a girl playing with dolls. Why not allowing him to play with what he wants to play with?

I think the majority of parents teach their children then can be what they want to be. I have gender neutral toys, when my son visits his grandparents or nursery there are both gender toys and he is not forced to play with gender specific and does in fact play with both but I don't feel I am judging him by dressing him as a boy when that is, in fact what he is.

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Zee

But do you not think that by letting him dress up and play with all these different things, they're actually allowing him to determine his own identity? If they were just raising him like most other people raise their kids, he would have an identity imposed upon him that he would accept as his own once he reached a certain age, for example: you like football, you spike your hair up, you play with toy cars...

Once you get past the unusual nature of what they're doing, I actually think it's a really wonderful thing. They're teaching him that he can be whoever he wants to be without fear of judgment from them from birth. Isn't that what all children want to hear from their parents? They won't judge him if he turns out to be any different from anyone else because they're encouraging him to be whoever he wants to be. I mean it's not like this is so isolated; Sweden not long ago introduced a gender neutral pronoun that people can use instead of he/she/him/her so that if people want to be ambiguous about gender and not discriminate in any way, they now have the vocabulary for that.

I get your point Zee but I honestly think these parents are pushing their own opinions onto this child, if he wants to play with dolls and prams fair enough and if he wants to play with trucks and dinosaurs that's also fair enough, but why does he have to wait until he's in a dress to play with dolls and then dressed as a boy to play with trucks? that's not gender neutralising at all, let him play with what he wants when he wants without dressing him up in a certain way, what she is doing is still stereotyping.

His mother also says this

‘They teach little boys to be aggressive and dominant over women,’ she argues. ‘There’s research out there saying that the whole “boys will be boys” thing basically teaches lads that it’s OK to be a certain way, because it’s in their nature to be aggressive. It’s detrimental for them and for females.’

That is extremely insulting to anyone that has brought up their children in a more traditional way, it's also stereotyping again, something that she claims damages kids.

The parents are making it into a big issue when they should be concentrating on teaching him manners and respect for other people then when he's older he can make decisions for himself.

[Z]

Yeah I agree with all three of you; I just think that the first few posts in this thread were just sort of rubbishing them as parents when I think they're doing a very admirable thing, just perhaps not doing it in the most effective way. I don't understand why they've separated it into boy time and girl time; surely just get him a mixture of traditionally boy/girl toys/clothes/whatever and leave him to make his mind up about what he wants to play with and wear. At any rate I think it's an interesting concept and at least it's not as ridiculous as the social experiment I came across in Germany of the little boy whose parents wanted to see how long hair would grow naturally so they had this ratty horrid pig tail growing at the back of his head but the rest of it kept short

[Livia]

More woolly-headed liberal parents propelling their son toward an adolescence of counselling and therapy. Meet you all back here in, say, twelve years to see how this pans out.

Allowing a little boy to wear a dress is just odd. I mean, it's not like it's something that's happened naturally, his parents have bought the dress for him to wear. What a ridiculous society we've become.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Zee

Yeah I agree with all three of you; I just think that the first few posts in this thread were just sort of rubbishing them as parents when I think they're doing a very admirable thing, just perhaps not doing it in the most effective way. I don't understand why they've separated it into boy time and girl time; surely just get him a mixture of traditionally boy/girl toys/clothes/whatever and leave him to make his mind up about what he wants to play with and wear. At any rate I think it's an interesting concept and at least it's not as ridiculous as the social experiment I came across in Germany of the little boy whose parents wanted to see how long hair would grow naturally so they had this ratty horrid pig tail growing at the back of his head but the rest of it kept short

I agree that the parents here have unwittingly made this into an issue by their very actions. They should have just let the child decide which toys he wanted to play with and what clothes he wanted to wear. most likely the same ones as the rest of the other little boys are wearing and playing with.

This type of social experimenting is well intentioned but at best wishful thinking at worst downright damaging to the child as he could stand out in his class or school playground and become the target for years of abuse. It could damage him emotionally and seriously impact on his relationship with his parents.

Like a lot of posters have said, just point him in the right gender direction but let him decide what he feels comfortable with.

I agree the idea of encouraging little boys to play with guns and soldiers and wargames etc... is unecessary and panders to Societies obsession with power and control.....let children decide what they want to play with and what they believe in ie No religious indoctrination . Teach them about ALL religions and again let them decide when they have reached an age where they can make an informed decision....

[lostalex]

I agree with all of the people questioning the motives of the parents going public about this. Why would any parent call the Daily Mail to tell them that their son wears dresses? There definitely seems to be alterior motives here.

remember the Balloon Boy from a few years ago? turned out the father was just a fame *****.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Livia

More woolly-headed liberal parents propelling their son toward an adolescence of counselling and therapy. Meet you all back here in, say, twelve years to see how this pans out.

Allowing a little boy to wear a dress is just odd. I mean, it's not like it's something that's happened naturally, his parents have bought the dress for him to wear. What a ridiculous society we've become.

But then boys and girls being interested in Barbie/Action Men, or wanting to wear dresses and makeup or jeans and baseball caps aren't naturally acquired tastes either, they are socialised. I'm not disagreeing with people arguing that the way these parents are going about this is wrong, they've misunderstood the concept of gender neutral parenting, but children don't 'naturally' want to or not want to wear dresses, they learn the behaviours of their peers, the media and what their parents teach them.

If you were to place a one year old child in a white room with a dress and a pair of jeans, and a dolls house with Barbies and Action Men and toy cars in two separate piles, and left them to walk up to one to dress up in/play with - taking the hypothetical assumption that they haven't ever interacted with other people their age or had any sort of guidance from their parents or the media - the chances of them going to either pile is a completely 50/50 toss up, there isn't any 'natural' instinct whatsoever - it is a toss of a coin. You put a child that's interacted with other children of a similar age, had media messages fed to them and had guidance from their parents, and they will probably go to the pile that fits the gender stereotypes they've been taught. It isn't natural though, it's learned behaviour.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..yeah I do totally Alex, but his gender is male so I don't see that it's repressing him for him to be dressed as male...that's not enforcing anything aggressive or 'macho' on him...

wearing a dress isn't gonna make him any less male though.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by lostalex

wearing a dress isn't gonna make him any less male though.

I agree............Will.I.am was wearing one on the Voice on TV on sat night.

and he's quite male..........isn't he ??

[Vicky.]

Im all for not having 'girls' toys and 'boys' toys and stuff lke that, but to actively change your kids clothes to a dress halfway through the day and get him to play with dolls instead of cars as he had played with cars on the morning is taking the piss a bit and will just confuse the child. Seems to be a ****ing experiment tbh