[Ammi]

..I would be really surprised if he was found guilty of murder and would it not have been better to be a manslaughter charge because unlike OJ, there was never a question that he didn't shoot and kill her..only what the intent was/whether he thought she was an intruder/threat or whether it was an intentional killing...

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Shaun

eh, I'm not really the strongest advocate of the (all-encompassing, gun-toting) right to defend your home but what are South Africa's laws on that? Because I think it's a bit extreme to say that's murder.

Hearing a noise in the bathroom and blindly just firing a gun at someone on the other side of a door 4 times I would think is murder.

I don't think that would count as self defence or anything.

[Kate!]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

Hearing a noise in the bathroom and blindly just firing a gun at someone on the other side of a door 4 times I would think is murder.

I don't think that would count as self defence or anything.

Yes, it's hardly what I'd expect the instinctive reaction to be. My first thought would be instantly to go to check on my partner, phone for help, and get out of there.

[Ammi]

..I don't know, it's a bit of a tricky one in a way, Marsh...it's a completely different world to the one we're used to with the threat and fear of intruders etc, so it's hard to really predict what would be 'typical behaviour' maybe..

[lostalex]

Do i think it'll be fair? no. I don't think celebrity trials are fair in any country, so I doubt South Africa will be any different.

I don't think there is a single country on earth where everyone is treated equally by the law.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I don't know, it's a bit of a tricky one in a way, Marsh...it's a completely different world to the one we're used to with the threat and fear of intruders etc, so it's hard to really predict what would be 'typical behaviour' maybe..

Agree, SA is one of the most violent countries in the world and the fear of break ins or armed intruders will be massively heightened there, I think Pistorious once admitted before all this in an interview that he slept with a gun, a baseball bat and a cricket bat for fear or burglars. If he was also on his stumps and lacking any real mobility that would only make it a more frightening situation

According to this article:

South African law gives far more leeway to the use of force in self defence than many other countries. Anyone can respond with force if their life is in danger.

The attacker does not necessarily have to be carrying a weapon: if you fear injury or death, you can use the most extreme means, including killing the assailant.

There is no balancing of weapons. If, for example, the attacker is carrying a knife and his target happens to have a firearm, the intended victim would be entitled to shoot that person dead.

South African law also states that you can defend somebody else if there is a possibility of serious injury or death. You are entitled to intervene and even kill the attacker. You do not have to be in a family or any other kind of relationship to the victim.

If somebody breaks into your house, you are entitled to kill that person under certain circumstances. If the burglar runs away and you kill that person anyway, you could be exceeding the bounds of self-defence. If, however, you are faced with a situation where you fear for your life or safety, you would be entitled to kill the intruder.

South African courts understand that these scenarios happen very quickly, usually at night. A householder cannot sit down and decide objectively exactly what should be done. You could reasonably expect any intruder to be armed and capable of doing you harm. The courts tend to accept a broad definition of self-defence.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Agree, SA is one of the most violent countries in the world and the fear of break ins or armed intruders will be massively heightened there, I think Pistorious once admitted before all this in an interview that he slept with a gun, a baseball bat and a cricket bat for fear or burglars. If he was also on his stumps and lacking any real mobility that would only make it a more frightening situation

According to this article:

but he wasn't really worried about intruders. He was just angry at his woman, who he considered his property, and when she locked herself in a bathroom to get away from him, he was so frustrated that she wouldn't open the door, that he just started shooting through the door.

That's what I think at least.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by lostalex

but he wasn't really worried about intruders. he was just angry at his woman, who he considered his property, and when she locked herself in a bathroom to get away from him, he was so frustrated that that she wouldn't open the door, that he just started shooting through thew door.

That's what i think at least.

You may well be right, I was just talking hypothetically if he really did think it was an intruder he probably wouldn't be convicted of murder

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Agree, SA is one of the most violent countries in the world and the fear of break ins or armed intruders will be massively heightened there, I think Pistorious once admitted before all this in an interview that he slept with a gun, a baseball bat and a cricket bat for fear or burglars. If he was also on his stumps and lacking any real mobility that would only make it a more frightening situation

According to this article:

..I have an aunt and uncle who lived in South Africa for many years and my uncle was shot three times during their lives there and two of those times it was by intruders in their home...we hear about dreadful situations on the news etc and obviously we take precautions for our safety but we don’t live with the day to day real threats and fears that people in some countries do so it’s really hard to fully understand it or the precautions they take compared to what we think we would do..?..

..there’s no question that he shot her, obviously...that’s where I think this differs from most other cases..and there obviously is also a chance that he deliberately killed her but if had to say, do I 100% believe that it was an intentional killing..?..I really couldn’t say that and even if I felt 97/98/99% sure...that’s enough isn’t it to say there is element of doubt...and enough for an innocent verdict and I think that’s the way it could go...

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I have an aunt and uncle who lived in South Africa for many years and my uncle was shot three times during their lives there and two of those times it was by intruders in their home...we hear about dreadful situations on the news etc and obviously we take precautions for our safety but we don’t live with the day to day real threats and fears that people in some countries do so it’s really hard to fully understand it or the precautions they take compared to what we think we would do..?..

..there’s no question that he shot her, obviously...that’s where I think this differs from most other cases..and there obviously is also a chance that he deliberately killed her but if had to say, do I 100% believe that it was an intentional killing..?..I really couldn’t say that and even if I felt 97/98/99% sure...that’s enough isn’t it to say there is element of doubt...and enough for an innocent verdict and I think that’s the way it could go...

innocent of 1st degree murder maybe, but completely innocent? no. Certainly he's guilty of a crime that at least deserves 20 years in jail. Why didn't he ask who was in the bathroom? why didn't he check on Reeva if he really thought they were danger?

He didn't do anything right in that scenario. Whether he was murdering his girlfriend, or just killed her by accident because he was paranoid about intruders, either way it was a horrible crime and he deserves to be in jail for a very long time. He acted recklessly either way.

None of his actions, no matter which story you believe, were appropriate or reasonable actions.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by lostalex

innocent of 1st degree murder maybe, but completely innocent? no. Certainly he's guilty of a crime that at least deserves 20 years in jail. Why didn't he ask who was in the bathroom? why didn't he check on Reeva if he really thought they were danger?

He didn't do anything right in that scenario. Whether he was murdering his girlfriend, or just killed her by accident because he was paranoid about intruders, either way it was a horrible crime and he deserves to be in jail for a very long time. He acted recklessly either way.

None of his actions, no matter which story you believe, were appropriate or reasonable actions.

..yeah but I think that's the thing though, Alex..he's being tried for premeditated murder and I'm not saying that I believe that he felt under threat from an intruder/intruders but I think it's going to be something that's going to be extremely hard to establish for certain, which is why I think there will be an element of doubt and I don't think he'll be found guilty, so there is no alternative other than 'innocent'...

[Z]

"Who's in there?"
"It's me, Reeva"

That's all it would have taken to prevent this from happening. So either he crept up to the door and shot whoever was behind it without asking any questions or he knew it was her. Shoot first and ask questions later. Not nice.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

You may well be right, I was just talking hypothetically if he really did think it was an intruder he probably wouldn't be convicted of murder

Why would an intruder go into his bathroom and lock himself in though? It makes absolutely no sense

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Zee

"Who's in there?"
"It's me, Reeva"

That's all it would have taken to prevent this from happening. So either he crept up to the door and shot whoever was behind it without asking any questions or he knew it was her. Shoot first and ask questions later. Not nice.

Exactly. You would think that he'd be more likely to assume that his girlfriend was in his ensuite bathroom than a burglar, why on earth would a burglar sneak into his bedroom only to lock himself in the toilet, it doesn't make any sense

[lostalex]

he'll get off. OJ simpson all over again. mark my words.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by lostalex

he'll get off. OJ simpson all over again. mark my words.

Think so too

[Z]

Yeah so far the investigation has been bungled so many times that I think he's going to get off due to a lack of evidence... which is bull****. Who shoots at their bathroom door four times without thinking to ask who's there? I think he killed her in cold blood. It just does not make sense.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by lostalex

he'll get off. OJ simpson all over again. mark my words.

I agree,it would surprise me if he was found guilty. I feel sure you will be proven right lostalex.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Why would an intruder go into his bathroom and look himself in though? It makes absolutely no sense

Well this is his version of events here: http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/p...133133080.html

- There were no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside. Although I did not have my prosthetics legs on, I have mobility on my stumps.

- I believed someone had entered my house. I was too scared to switch a light on. I grabbed my 9 mm pistol from underneath my bed.

- On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police. It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed.

- I noticed that the bathroom window was open. I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom. I heard movement inside the toilet. The toilet is inside the bathroom and has a separate door.

- It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet. I thought he or they must have entered through the unprotected window.

- As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable, I knew I had to protect Reeva and myself.

- I believed that when the intruder/s came out of the toilet, we would be in grave danger. I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps.

- I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to call the police. She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance.

[lostalex]

so how does he explain his past history of domestic abuse, and the fact that he'd been arguing with Reeva earlier? or does he deny that. There is plenty of evidence that actually he had abused and beat Reeva many times before this night.


and does he still act like he was just a normal happy guy in a happy relationship? There are multiple witnesses that saw him being angry and abusive towards her.

He has a history of this kind of behavior. He reminds me of Robert Blake and Phil Spector.

This is why it's important to tell all women in an abusive relationship, it only get's worse! don't think that it get's better, it never get's better.

Any woman on this forum who is in an abusive relationship, this is how it ends., get out now.

[Josy]

Anyone else watching this on Sky Sports 2?

So many witnesses saying they heard shouting before the gunshots.

[MTVN]

Sky Sports 2? what are they showing about it

[Josy]

Just the days events, have seen some of the witness statements and now they are just talking about it.

[Kate!]

Originally Posted by lostalex

so how does he explain his past history of domestic abuse, and the fact that he'd been arguing with Reeva earlier? or does he deny that. There is plenty of evidence that actually he had abused and beat Reeva many times before this night.


and does he still act like he was just a normal happy guy in a happy relationship? There are multiple witnesses that saw him being angry and abusive towards her.

He has a history of this kind of behavior. He reminds me of Robert Blake and Phil Spector.

This is why it's important to tell all women in an abusive relationship, it only get's worse! don't think that it get's better, it never get's better.

Any woman on this forum who is in an abusive relationship, this is how it ends., get out now.

I could not agree more with this especially the last part about getting out.

[Ammi]

..I just think he's going to be found not guilty because his defence is plausible..I'm not saying I think that's what happened but just that it is possible so therefore leaves an element of doubt and I think that it was more or less going to be that way on a murder charge as opposed to manslaughter, because surely he would have to have a prison sentence for that...