[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by bobnot

Even if they are displaying national front flags and have swastikas on display like some of these imbeciles did?
You suprise me Nedusa.
They were nothing more than a bunch of kippers/edl/bnp losers.
Everyone is pissed off with the state of British politics but you are barking up the wrong tree if you think gimps like this hold any answers.
Displaying Nazi symbols at the same time as trying to claim you have the best interests of the UK at heart is about as idiotic as it gets.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/pegida-uk-a...castle-1489903

Actually Bob I agree they do look like an oudated NF march from the 70's and I would not join such a march BUT somebody has to make a start demonstrating about the destruction or disintegration of the UK.

Our National identity, language,culture and religion are slowly being diluted into a mish mash of competing cultures/languages/religions all trying desparately to move their country into this Country and replace what was here before. A vast sprawling patchwork of Cultural Ghettos.

Multiculturalism has failed, Immigration is rampant and nobody seems to care.

So yes whilst I don't agree with the extreme views of these demonstrators I'm glad somebody is putting a line down in the sand.

I just hope more and more people finally say enough and vote with their feet and with their X on Election day.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by the truth

its certainly not verbalized that way, it usually descends into a bitter atheist mocking Christ and Christian beliefs, the high profile atheists often cower away from being so harsh to other harder line religions. and of course they never actually say what they stand for nor do they outline their values or beliefs. of course they try to claim science as their own, which is a lie as the majority of greatest scientists were religious, often Christians

how ix it possible to be harsh against something that doesn't exist?

religion is a joke, there is not a single shred of evidence supporting any religion. that's not harsh, it's fact.

saying that believing in fairies is harsh as well then???

ridiculing the ridiculous is not harsh.

people believing in religion, is like a friend that wants to superglue themselves to a helicopter. Will it take them higher? yes, but it is ****ing retarded. and eventually they will fall back to earth.

[lostalex]

Would the world be a better place without Islam? yes.

Would the world be perfect without Islam? no.

[Tom4784]

So it's basically EDL 2.0...

[Kizzy]

'Displaying Nazi symbols at the same time as trying to claim you have the best interests of the UK at heart is about as idiotic as it gets.'

Spot on Bob.

[DemolitionRed]

Fortunately, of all the sites I use and I use quite a lot, this is the only site where I see some regular Islamophobia and even then I could count on one hand who those people are. What I do know is, these people don’t speak on behalf of a nation as was recently suggested; they don’t speak on my behalf or most of the other members who use this forum. Islamophobia is merely a small group who are getting a lot of tabloid coverage at the moment.

We live in a democracy; we can be any religion we choose without fear. Many Britons are Muslim just as many Britons are Jewish, Christian, Hindu or whatever else. What is presently happening regarding a small number of young Muslims being radicalized does not reflect on Islam as a whole, just as the long bombing campaign by the IRA did not reflect on all Irish Catholics who chose to live in the UK.

[Ninastar]

i bet 90% of these twats have no idea what they are even protesting for

[Livia]

I suppose this difference between Islam and other religions is that, their fundamentalist members have made it clear that they intend to spread Islam across the world. I've heard it said several times by terrorists that they will not rest until their flag flies above the Whitehouse. It adds to people's fear and people are completely within their rights to protest peacefully to voice those fears. Sadly the media hones in on the far right representatives who turn up and ignores the people who have genuine worries. Like immigration, we're not allowed to have a sensible discussion about Islamification because if you do, you must be one of the bigots whose images they've chosen to represent this march in the media.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Livia

I suppose this difference between Islam and other religions is that, their fundamentalist members have made it clear that they intend to spread Islam across the world. I've heard it said several times by terrorists that they will not rest until their flag flies above the Whitehouse. It adds to people's fear and people are completely within their rights to protest peacefully to voice those fears. Sadly the media hones in on the far right representatives who turn up and ignores the people who have genuine worries. Like immigration, we're not allowed to have a sensible discussion about Islamification because if you do, you must be one of the bigots whose images they've chosen to represent this march in the media.

Brilliant post Livia, I have issues with Islam, but having an issue with how a Religion runs itself does not make me a bigot like some would have you believe.

The way their extremists behave (which seems to be a lot more of them than in any other Religion) is very backward and dangerous, they're not just causing trouble in the UK, they're doing it in Burma, China, even took hostages from countries like Japan, you have a small group that can cause trouble in India, some of them that are in the US also cause trouble, and don't forget how some Europeans like France and Germany are having issues with the Muslim population as well.

I would be well on the Muslims side if it was just the UK taking a funny with them, but when 5 or 6 other countries just off the top of my head are having issues with them, and are fine with every other Religion in their countries then I think it's just souly the Muslims fault, and they need to have a serious look about how to modernize themselves as the majority in this case cannot be wrong.

[Mystic Mock]

I do think this cause has been destroyed though when the Union Jack has a NF symbol on it.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

I do think this cause has been destroyed though when the Union Jack has a NF symbol on it.

and the nazi signs....

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Brilliant post Livia, I have issues with Islam, but having an issue with how a Religion runs itself does not make me a bigot like some would have you believe.

The way their extremists behave (which seems to be a lot more of them than in any other Religion) is very backward and dangerous, they're not just causing trouble in the UK, they're doing it in Burma, China, even took hostages from countries like Japan, you have a small group that can cause trouble in India, some of them that are in the US also cause trouble, and don't forget how some Europeans like France and Germany are having issues with the Muslim population as well.

I would be well on the Muslims side if it was just the UK taking a funny with them, but when 5 or 6 other countries just off the top of my head are having issues with them, and are fine with every other Religion in their countries then I think it's just souly the Muslims fault, and they need to have a serious look about how to modernize themselves as the majority in this case cannot be wrong.

Problem is you are treating Muslims as a homogeneous group when Islam quite clearly manifests itself in literally dozens of different ways across different countries and different historical periods

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

and the nazi signs....

I actually didn't see that, but yes those too aren't exactly gonna help.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Problem is you are treating Muslims as a homogeneous group when Islam quite clearly manifests itself in literally dozens of different ways across different countries and different historical periods

Well of course like every Religion you have different sects and the followers ranging from mild believers to extreme believers.

However the representatives of the Islamic Religion are very extreme, and they're the only culture that I know of that seem to be obsessed with turning countries into an Islamic State (and I'm not just on about the UK) I don't have an issue with people that want to follow the Religion in piece, but I do have a problem with any Muslim that seems to want to force people into converting to Islam by blowing people up and destroying Christian Cities, killing people in the name of Islam.

They're like how Christians was in the Medieval Times, and the thing is no civil country should stand for that, this Religion needs to be brought up to date a little bit as they can't just live in wealthier countries and then attack it for having different beliefs to you.

If they don't like the none Muslim culture then don't live in those countries, it's as simple as that really to me.

[Mystic Mock]

Agnostic is the way to go.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Well of course like every Religion you have different sects and the followers ranging from mild believers to extreme believers.

However the representatives of the Islamic Religion are very extreme, and they're the only culture that I know of that seem to be obsessed with turning countries into an Islamic State (and I'm not just on about the UK) I don't have an issue with people that want to follow the Religion in piece, but I do have a problem with any Muslim that seems to want to force people into converting to Islam by blowing people up and destroying Christian Cities, killing people in the name of Islam.

They're like how Christians was in the Medieval Times, and the thing is no civil country should stand for that, this Religion needs to be brought up to date a little bit as they can't just live in wealthier countries and then attack it for having different beliefs to you.

If they don't like the none Muslim culture then don't live in those countries, it's as simple as that really to me.

Still assuming Muslims are a homogeneous group. It's not the case that it's a linear spectrum from mildly believing Muslims to extreme believing terrorists, its far more complicated than that. ISIS are only representative of their own fundamentalist, hardline version of Islam. They take pride in that, far more dogmatic than any other Islamist group before them, and will just as happily kill other Muslims who don't subscribe to their beliefs as they will Westerners - in fact they're liable to hate other Muslims more. Why do you see them as representatives of the Islamic Religion? Why not see, say, the Kurds as representative? They are overwhelmingly Muslim but are typically quite a liberal people and they are on the front lines fighting IS. Why not see the Indonesia as representative? An Islamic democracy. You talk about the Medieval times, well the medieval Muslim world saw some of the biggest scientific and cultural advances in human history. Why not see that as representative? Or we could just accept that it's actually pretty impossible for any one group in any one time to 'represent' Islam. It will always manifest itself in different ways. Yes IS are Muslims and we should appreciate that fact, but we should also appreciate that they represent no one but themselves.

[Mystic Mock]

You do have a point MTVN, what does hurt the Religion though is that their extremists lately have been going way further than any other Religions.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Still assuming Muslims are a homogeneous group. It's not the case that it's a linear spectrum from mildly believing Muslims to extreme believing terrorists, its far more complicated than that. ISIS are only representative of their own fundamentalist, hardline version of Islam. They take pride in that, far more dogmatic than any other Islamist group before them, and will just as happily kill other Muslims who don't subscribe to their beliefs as they will Westerners - in fact they're liable to hate other Muslims more. Why do you see them as representatives of the Islamic Religion? Why not see, say, the Kurds as representative? They are overwhelmingly Muslim but are typically quite a liberal people and they are on the front lines fighting IS. Why not see the Indonesia as representative? An Islamic democracy. You talk about the Medieval times, well the medieval Muslim world saw some of the biggest scientific and cultural advances in human history. Why not see that as representative? Or we could just accept that it's actually pretty impossible for any one group in any one time to 'represent' Islam. It will always manifest itself in different ways. Yes IS are Muslims and we should appreciate that fact, but we should also appreciate that they represent no one but themselves.

Thanks for the educated voice MTVN

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Thanks for the educated voice MTVN

As distinct from voices which write about Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism and condemn it which are uneducated?

I would put Matt among the top 4 most educated, intelligent, knowledgeable and articulate members on this forum, and I cannot fault what he states in his latest post, but none of his points are unique on this forum because similar points have been made by others in various posts - though MTVN does excellently articulate them in one single post.

What I do have a problem with is posts which repeatedly make serious specific statements which simply are not true, and for which there is not one shred of credible evidence which justifies such statements.

For example, your post reproduced in part below:

"Fortunately, of all the sites I use and I use quite a lot, this is the only site where I see some regular Islamophobia and even then I could count on one hand who those people are. What I do know is, these people don’t speak on behalf of a nation as was recently suggested; they don’t speak on my behalf or most of the other members who use this forum. Islamophobia is merely a small group who are getting a lot of tabloid coverage at the moment."

The section which I have emboldened, is but gross misrepresentation because no one on this forum is 'Islamophobic' - just anti 'ISIS', 'ISIL' and 'IS', and I would greatly appreciate it if you would collate and post actual evidence that anyone on this forum is 'Islamophobic'.

You are also a - very obviously - well-educated, intelligent, knowledgeable and articulate person, so I cannot attribute your misrepresentation to any misunderstanding or misinterpretation of other FM's posts, so I am afraid that I am left with no other conclusion but that your accusatory 'Islamophobia' statement is false by design not error.

I have repeatedly stressed in many lengthy posts on this forum that I am not blaming all Muslims for the Islamic terrorist's inhuman actions, and I have gone to great lengths to expound just why 'ordinary peace-loving Muslims' are not to blame, and I know that other FM's who have been the most vociferous in their condemnation of IS, ISIS, ISIL et al , have done the same.

Despite this, the same hackneyed and hysterical accusations that we are 'Islamaphobic' or 'Xenophobic', and 'Tarring all Muslims with the same brush'... Yawn.... etc. are levied against us.

It simply is not true. It is unjust, and it does nothing but impair sensible debate.

I have stated before, that in many ways, this forum is a microcosm of real life, and this is illustrated nowhere better than in the fact that although the great majority on here are passive and silent, they are NOT ignorant and are nonetheless still very AWARE of the real issues affecting us all, but the fact that this passive majority are silent and may prefer ‘not to get involved’, does lead to a situation – both in the ‘real’ world, and on here – where only a few very vociferous minorities engage in often heated debates (for want of a more apt word) on terrorism. Unfortunately, those of us who condemn terrorism in all its manifestations are the lesser minority and are often subjected to irrational attacks for our views, and unjustly accused of 'Islamaphobia’ and similar as mentioned above.

No amount of unjustifiable attacks though – no matter how aggressive or artfully veiled they may be – can obscure the incontrovertible truth of what we write:

A) ISIS, ISIL, IS are Muslims.
B) The Quran is The Holy Book of Islam – The unaltered direct word of Allah.
C) The Quran contains 109 chapters which exhort the Muslim faithful to perpetrate every type of violence from dismembering to beheading. Unlike similar passages in the Judeo Christian Bible, these chapters are ‘open-ended’ not ‘era-specific’, and are ‘prescriptive not descriptive’.
D) Secreted among the majority of ‘ordinary’ peace-loving UK domiciled Muslim communities are a minority of Islamic Fundamentalists, IS sympathisers, and actual terrorists.
E) Immigration is irrefutably linked to Islamic terrorism: a minority of Fifth Columnist Jihadists and Islamic Extremist activists enter the UK secreted among the masses of ‘ordinary’ immigrants. Various of our Chiefs of Police and Security Services are now on record confirming this link.
F) The sheer numbers of British born or previously domiciled British Muslim immigrants, who are increasingly being revealed to have engaged in, or are currently engaged in terrorist murders and other evil atrocities – both in the UK but especially in Syria, Iraq and other foreign countries – is undeniable.

The above are incontrovertible, irrefutable, undeniable FACTS and to state them is NOT an attack on ALL Muslims, nor an attack on ALL immigrants, nor is it being ‘ISLAMOPHOBIC’ or ‘RACIST’, and anyone who misconstrues or misrepresents them as such is trying to stifle legitimate discussion and SILENCE contrary views and debate, by stealth and simply unfair tactics.

I will debate any issue at all, and – as always – I will support my opinion and any of my contentions with facts, and I will always employ fairness and civility when discussing, but please let’s discard untrue premises and unfair misrepresentation – starting with the statement that there are ‘Islamaphobes’ on this forum because such a statement is simply not true.

[Kizzy]

'The Quran contains 109 chapters which exhort the Muslim faithful to perpetrate every type of violence from dismembering to beheading'

'I will support my opinion and any of my contentions with facts,'

How can you suggest you are only against the terrorist faction of this faith and then accuse the holy book used by ALL Muslims compels them to kill?
It seems contradictory to your stance that you have no issue with 'ordinary' Muslims.

Can you support these claims with fact, where is it written that the Quran urges these barbaric acts?

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

'The Quran contains 109 chapters which exhort the Muslim faithful to perpetrate every type of violence from dismembering to beheading'

'I will support my opinion and any of my contentions with facts,'

How can you suggest you are only against the terrorist faction of this faith and then accuse the holy book used by ALL Muslims compels them to kill?
It seems contradictory to your stance that you have no issue with 'ordinary' Muslims.

Can you support these claims with fact, where is it written that the Quran urges these barbaric acts?

I have issues with all of it........from the beheadings at one end of the scale to the wearing of burqa's and the like at the other end.

I feel in recent years that this Islamic infestation has just slowly intensified. I must admit I find all of it quite repulsive and wish it would just go away.

But it won't , I know... so I have to try and put a brave face on it and smile accordingly, and as the news reports yet another islamic terrorist atrocity or the opening of another Mosque or the call to make all meat Halal or the request for Sharia law or a hundred other alien requests, I just turn my head in sadness and wonder why all of this is being allowed to happen right before our eyes.

And I look at the EDL and although I don't agree with their extreme views I secretly applaud their stance and their marches and I hope the Pegida movement grows Europewide.

I know I am not normally a right wing type of voter but I see myself being pushed bit by bit down that road and that upsets me also.

I look at where I live in North London and wonder what this place will be like in another 10 years and then I start looking enviously at towns on the south coast that I could move to, to escape this creeping malaise.

[Kizzy]

Well at least your honest about how you feel...
This mix of religion, law and foreign policies have created a divide that are going to impact severely in the UK unless there is some resolution....like yesterday.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

'The Quran contains 109 chapters which exhort the Muslim faithful to perpetrate every type of violence from dismembering to beheading'

'I will support my opinion and any of my contentions with facts,'

How can you suggest you are only against the terrorist faction of this faith and then accuse the holy book used by ALL Muslims compels them to kill?
It seems contradictory to your stance that you have no issue with 'ordinary' Muslims.

Can you support these claims with fact, where is it written that the Quran urges these barbaric acts?

First of all, I note how you request of me PROOF of my contentions when you do not make similar demands of other FM's in respect of their statements in their posts, but being ever the gentleman, I will accede to your request - even though I am most probably the member on here who usually most strives to corroborate his contentions with corroborating facts anyway.

Secondly; I did NOT state that the Holy Book used by all Muslims "compells them to kill" -- I said; "The Quran contains 109 chapters which EXHORT the Muslim faithful to perpetrate EVERY TYPE OF VIOLENCE from DISMEMBERING TO BEHEADING". Once again, there is a categorical difference between what I wrote and what you MISREPRESENT I wrote, and it really is so very important to be as precise as possible if one is going to quote another.

Thirdly; the section of your post which I have emboldened makes no sense at all;

A) How do you justify suggesting that because I point out the very real existence of verses within the Quran which exhort violence that I am 'contradicting my stance' that 'I have no issue with ordinary Muslims'?

To accept your illogical deduction would be to contend that ALL MUSLIMS interpret such verses of violence LITERALLY - when they quite patently DO NOT, because if that was the case Jihadists would not be in the MINORITY and nearly 2 BILLION MUSLIMS would be waging terrorist war on the rest of humanity.

Thank God they are not.

Anyway, on to the verses of violence within the Quran. Because of space limitations and time constraints I - obviously - do not need to post all 109 verses, nor to post each verse in its entirety, so the following should suffice for purpose and any further interest on your part can be satisfied by your own research efforts.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them,”

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you”

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast TERROR into the hearts of the Unbelievers,”

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (4:89) - "... seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "..and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their personsn Faith) Hath Allah promised good..”

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush..”

Quran (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant."

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah..”

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Quran (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew."

Quran (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran..."

Quran (9:123) -"O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."


Quran (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them (Jihad) with the utmost strenuousness..."

Quran (33:60-62) - "...We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."

Quran (47:3-4) - "Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners," Those who reject Allah are to be subdued in battle”.

There are other very violent verses in the Quran, and equally as violent passages in the 'Hadith Qudsi' or sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, but with exhortations to 'cut off fingers', cut off heads' and 'fight' and 'kill' in the verses above, further research is really not necessary to convince.

Anyway, I hope that I have satisfied your request Kizzy.

[Kizzy]

'To accept your illogical deduction would be to contend that ALL MUSLIMS interpret such verses of violence LITERALLY - when they quite patently DO NOT, because if that was the case Jihadists would not be in the MINORITY and nearly 2 BILLION MUSLIMS would be waging terrorist war on the rest of humanity.'

Then why take issue with the Quran and quote the parts you have, what was the intention?
If the Quran exhorts this retribution then every Muslim in the world might act on that teaching, is that right?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

'To accept your illogical deduction would be to contend that ALL MUSLIMS interpret such verses of violence LITERALLY - when they quite patently DO NOT, because if that was the case Jihadists would not be in the MINORITY and nearly 2 BILLION MUSLIMS would be waging terrorist war on the rest of humanity.'

Then why take issue with the Quran and quote the parts you have, what was the intention?
If the Quran exhorts this retribution then every Muslim in the world might act on that teaching, is that right?

This is a polite and civil response to your post above which is directly addressed to me, and is a response borne out of common courtesy because your post demands answers from me to questions which are directed to me in the said post.

First, may I clear something up? You quote a section of my post in the opening of your post above, yet it is actually credited as you quoting your own post because it actually reads as;

[QUOTE=Kizzy;7633246]'To accept your illogical deduction would be to contend that ALL MUSLIMS interpret such verses of violence LITERALLY - when they quite patently DO NOT, because if that was the case Jihadists would not be in the MINORITY and nearly 2 BILLION MUSLIMS would be waging terrorist war on the rest of humanity.'

Surely the excerpt should be preceded by 'Quote: Kirklancaster' to clearly identify the quoted passage as being mine?

Anyway, just as long as it's clear that the above excerpt is from my post, we'll continue:

You ask me above: "Then why take issue with the Quran and quote the parts you have, what was the intention?"

Yet, I quoted the parts of the Quran DIRECTLY IN RESPONSE to YOUR DIRECT REQUEST FOR ME TO DO SO in the post I am responding to as I show below:

"Can you support these claims with fact, where is it written that the Quran urges these barbaric acts?"


Do you see now Kizzy how confused and confusing your posts can be?

A) I make a rational HONEST statement in a post which says that there are 109 verses within the Quran which exhort violence.
B) You imply that I am lying and ask if I can prove this statement.
C) In response to your request, I post a selection of Quranic verses which exhort violence.
D) You then respond and ask me WHY I 'TAKE ISSUE WITH THE QURAN AND POST THE PARTS I HAVE'

More:

You ask me:

"If the Quran exhorts this retribution then every Muslim in the world might act on that teaching, is that right?"


First of all, you are mistaken in the above, because NONE of the violence in these verses of the Quran are RETRIBUTIONAL.

Retribution implies REACTIONARY VIOLENCE, REPRISAL, COUNTER ACTION, yet the violence exhorted by these verses is none of these, Muhammad is inciting his faithful to INITIATE war, and to ATTACK.

A lot of the verses were recited to inspire and motivate the faithful to raid Arab trade caravans, or to attack Medina and slaughter its besieged citizens etc.

Just thought I would clear that error up.

Coming to your question; technically, to be precise, because the incitement for all FAITHFULL DEVOUT Muslims to violence in the cause of Allah IS THERE in these verses, then, yes, "every Muslim in the world might act on that teaching.

However, such a possibility is very remote because - as I have stated many,many times - MOST MUSLIMS ARE MODERATE PEACE LOVING PEOPLE OF FAITH who do not interpret the passages in their Holy Book in the same literal manner which the fundamentalist extremists do. In fact I ALREADY STATED AS MUCH WHEN I WROTE IN THE VERY PASSAGE YOU QUOTE FROM ABOVE:

'To accept your illogical deduction would be to contend that ALL MUSLIMS interpret such verses of violence LITERALLY - when they quite patently DO NOT, because if that was the case Jihadists would not be in the MINORITY and nearly 2 BILLION MUSLIMS would be waging terrorist war on the rest of humanity."

So - again - Kizzy, you are asking me a question in this post when I have already stated the answer in the VERY PASSAGE WHICH YOU QUOTE AT THE VERY OPENING OF YOUR POST.

Do you see now Kizzy how confused and confusing your posts can be?


To close; your appendage of the question; "Is that right?" would imply a 'leading question' but I do not want to be drawn into futile counter-productive argument because that is not what I joined this forum for, and I have answered your questions, so I will end by saying that - in light of Josy's warning earlier today - I am now going to put you on ignore and I genuinely beseech you to put me on ignore then we may avoid further unpleasantness and trouble.

I hope that I have answered all your questions. Thank you.